Let's talk self-steering systems... - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 
  #11  
Old 10-20-2009
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
You really need to read the classics on this subject, like Lechter's Self-steering for Sailing craft... etc...

I'd point out that the waters you sail on make a big difference... some waters like Buzzards Bay, where I sail, generally have relatively constant winds with little in the way of sudden changes in direction and as such would probably work better with wind-controlled self-steering systems. Other areas, like the Chesapeake, which has relatively fluky and changing winds, are probably less well suited for them.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 10-21-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 476
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
negrini is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to negrini Send a message via Yahoo to negrini Send a message via Skype™ to negrini
byr0n, electronic steering has become very reliable, so it's the easiest installation. About your force calculation, mostly steering system is moved by water force, not wind. Wind will determine it's direction but enough force to move a tiller/wheel comes from the water passing through the system, and that already include some sort of purchase ratio. So, installation is always complicated and disturbing to your stern platform ....
__________________
Nave Rara
Beneteau Oceanis 43
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by negrini; 10-21-2009 at 09:05 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 10-21-2009
tager's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 991
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
tager is on a distinguished road
I do not blame anyone for having an incomplete understanding of physics. No person on earth has a complete understanding of physics. What is frustrating is listening to people talk about physics without doing any background work. It is detrimental to mankind to speak officiously when you really do not know a subject.

Some steering systems operate entirely upon energy harnessed in the form of aerodynamic drag imposed upon a vane. These are usually impractically large, barely effective, aesthetically displeasing, and only work on very well balanced boats.

Most steering systems are servo-pendulum type, with a windvane, a servo-oar, and a connection to the tiller. These work in a clever way. The vane sends energy to the oar. The oar then collects energy from the apparent flow of water caused by the boat making headway. This energy is sent to the tiller through lines guided by blocks.

There are also other varieties of self steering vanes, the most elegant of which is (imho) the trim tab on an outboard rudder.

This is a great resource when learning the basics of wind vane design.
http://www.selfsteer.com/windvanes101/index.php


Does anyone have experience with fenestrated rudders? Reportedly they require less input force from the helmsman, but have the same steering effect as a normal rudder. If this data is accurate, then they could be of great use in self steering systems.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 10-21-2009
tager's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 991
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
tager is on a distinguished road
Also, one must remember that mechanical advantage does not increase the amount of energy input. For instance, lets say that the vane receives a Joule of energy from a wind shift. Simple machines can change both the amount of force on the tiller, and the amount of distance the tiller can be moved. However, the energy imparted on the tiller will never be greater than the Joule originally gathered by the vane.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 10-21-2009
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,009
Thanks: 0
Thanked 63 Times in 54 Posts
Rep Power: 7
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Here's a link to plans for a horizontal vane:Sailboat Self Steering You can Build
Brian
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 10-21-2009
2nd mate
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
bartvdv is on a distinguished road
Self Steering
Sheet-to-Tiller Self Steering
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 10-21-2009
johnnyandjebus's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 411
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 5
johnnyandjebus is on a distinguished road
I started playing around this summer with sheet to tiller steering(t-shirt steering with some thought behind it) For about 50$ you can assemble all the required equipment. I have have had mixed results. Yesterday I was out in 10-12 knots, full main and genny on my contessa 26. The sheet to tiller worked flawlessly on any tack from reaching to close hualed. Broad reaching is still a challenge. The system requies some skill/experience setting up and sail trim is key,although good sail trim is a requirement for all self steering. Gusty winds doesn't help either.
I used the page below to learn about and assemble the required parts. I recommend giving it a try even if you already have an alternative as playing with sheet to tiller steering will force you to pay attention to sail trim.

Sheet-to-Tiller Self Steering

Good luck,
John
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 10-21-2009
byr0n's Avatar
Bruce Roberts 25'
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sidney, BC
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
byr0n is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
There used to be a windvane built in England called the QME I believe (for Quantock Marine Enterprises). I can't find a picture on the web. It was a horizontal pivoting vane with a counterweight and lines to the tiller. The base was on a bearing and when sails were set you weathercocked the vane and cleated off the tiller lines. It was quite inexpensive at the time. Problem was if your boat wasn't balanced well enough it didn't work that well as it wasn't that powerful. There is also the "Mister Vee" vane produced in England currently. Those Brits like to tinker.
www.mistervee.com - Home
I believe plans are available from that link.
yes, QME. That's what I envision. Thanks for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Most of the self steering systems that survived have developed into powerful reasonably maintenance free systems that work very well. The one I'm looking at is the Norvane, made in the US and quite affordable compared to the more popular names like Monitor. NORVANE Self-Steering Wind Vane. Stainless steel, servo-pendulum. Powerful, sturdy and reliable for sailboats 20’ to 60’
There is also a Windvane Forum that might be useful.
Cruising Sailor • View forum - Windvane Forum
Hope this helps
Brian
Thanks. Yeah, Norvane is a nice rig. Did you choose it for the added ability to have an emergency rudder attached? The pain is still in the $1900+ shipping and duties . Will be pouring over that windvane forum for more knowledge...
__________________
s/v Palu | Nantucket Clipper | Hull #3860
"Be Brave - You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 10-21-2009
byr0n's Avatar
Bruce Roberts 25'
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sidney, BC
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
byr0n is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by negrini View Post
byr0n, electronic steering has become very reliable, so it's the easiest installation.
Yes, however an electronic steering system keeps you on a course, which is not necessarily on the wind. The wind is a fickle thing which in many places is just plain undecided so course-keeping vs wind-keeping is the big difference. Both systems will run you aground if not attended, and both will run you into obstacles without a thought if the captain is not paying attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by negrini View Post
About your force calculation, mostly steering system is moved by water force, not wind. Wind will determine it's direction but enough force to move a tiller/wheel comes from the water passing through the system, and that already include some sort of purchase ratio. So, installation is always complicated and disturbing to your stern platform ....
yes, water is a major force... on in-water systems. (also, my calculations were in no way scientific or accurate. I simply was using bold variables to achieve a point) I am hoping to discuss the merits of above-the-water systems achieving some of the same goal that the big, sturdy expensive systems use.
__________________
s/v Palu | Nantucket Clipper | Hull #3860
"Be Brave - You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 10-21-2009
byr0n's Avatar
Bruce Roberts 25'
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sidney, BC
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
byr0n is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
You really need to read the classics on this subject, like Lechter's Self-steering for Sailing craft... etc...
Thanks Sailingdog, I am on the lookout for this book, as it is out of print, yet referenced a great deal in my googling for information of the subject of self-steering options
__________________
s/v Palu | Nantucket Clipper | Hull #3860
"Be Brave - You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Steering System Spring Checkup Tom Wood Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 04-26-2004 08:00 PM
Steering System Spring Checkup Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 04-26-2004 08:00 PM
Steering System Spring Checkup Tom Wood Her Sailnet Articles 0 04-26-2004 08:00 PM
Checking the Wheel Steering System Will Keene Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 07-31-2002 08:00 PM
Changing Steering Systems Dan Dickison Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 05-21-2002 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:20 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.