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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Gear & Maintenance
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  #1  
Old 10-26-2009
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What kind of adhesive

Hi-

We recently purchased a 1966 Paceship Mouette with rub rail that is original and in pretty bad shape. At one time it had been painted and most of the paint has worn off. This is a rubber type rub rail that appears along the joint of the hull flange and deck flange and is probably about 3/4" in diameter. Finding out the cost of new rub rail is probably half of what we spent on the boat.

Someone in a previous post suggested used fire hose. I think the idea is excellent. What baffles me though is what type of adhesive to use. I imagine that UV rays would be fairly tough on fire hose material. So frequent replacement such as once a season may be called for. With high frequency idea of perforating the area frequently with new screw holes isn't exciting and trying to find previous ones would be difficult if not impossible.

Is there an adhesive on the market that you think would work in this type of situation. It would have to have a fairly high pretty initial grab. Something like it catches on the first application of the fire hose. But if I see that I put a portion of the fire hose on crooked could pull it off in say the first 30 seconds and re-lay that portion that was layed crookedly.

I initially thought of contact cement. I've never used it. But I remember hearing that it is something that grabs quick. The down side of it though is that I think it is supposed to be clamped. The cost of clamping frequently around the 50 foot perimeter of the boat is unfortunately cost prohibitive for this project.

The boat will be used only in a fresh water environment.

Thank you.

Have a Great Day,
Jim
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Old 10-27-2009
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The devil is in the details.
I have thought about doing this on a friends Dyer Dhow 10' dinghy and may have even suggested the fire hose idea to you previously. I have the fire hose in my car but as of yet have not actually executed this job so take my comments for what they are: free advice and only worth what you paid for it!
1 - fire hose is an extremely durable canvas that is rubberized on the inside. I am certain that it is somewhat affected by UV. What is pretty resistant to UV is Gel Coat which is a Polyester resin with UV agents mixed into it which should stick to a cleaned up fire hose (light abrading followed by an acetone cleanup would be the prep steps for Gel Coat).
2 - epoxy resins of various types have a much higher adhesion (holding power) then polyester resins but it is generally not recommended to put polyester resins (and Gel Coat) on top of an epoxy coated surface. From this standpoint my idea was to use an epoxy adhesive to glue the fire hose to the rub rail as epoxy is both stronger then polyester in adhesion and water resistance (but not UV resistant).
3 - Something I am not entirely certain about is exactly which epoxy I would choose to glue the fire hose down to the rub rail with, whether thickened West System or other epoxy supplier or perhaps Marine Tex or even 3M 4200 or 5200. Part of the conundrum revolves around the curing time for the various options in this area, which involves ambient temperatures as well. In my experience the West System epoxy will set up pretty quickly (1-2 hrs.) in 70 - 80F temps and would be ideal whereas the 3M products I mentioned (while not really epoxy) can take a real long time to cure (so they are out of the running). I believe that Marine Tex is an epoxy based UV resistant paste but is more expensive then the other options so it is probably out of the running too.
4 - Another variable is how well will an adhesive stick to both the rubberized inside of the fire hose and the boat's rub rail. Epoxy should stick to rubber but not so well to smooth rubber surface. Perhaps the rubber inside of the fire hose needs to be abraded with a rough rasp or file prior to gluing.
5 - One more consideration is that the entire rail does not need to be done out of one continuous piece at one time, or does it? I would opt for doing a section or two at a time as you would not need so many clamps to hold it in place while the adhesive cures. Consider that you might coat the outside surface of the fire hose with Gel Coat or even just marine paint AND that you may have to make some extra cuts in the material to help it bend to the slope of the hull.
6 - Clamps. Yes. Lots of them. Even cheap 'C' clamps would be ideal for the job. Also, lots of strips of 3/16" or 1/8" Luan plywood would be ideal for distributing the pressure of the clamps.

Another thought is that perhaps I have over-thought this job that I have never done and it would just be easier with strips of teak and bolts every so often to hold it firmly in place around the toe rail.

Since I do not really know how much work this application of fire hose on your boat would take I really cant say. Those are just my thoughts. Take 'em for what they're worth.

Good luck.
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Old 10-27-2009
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Nylon rope would work, right? Nylon rope and epoxy? I know that there is some adhesive that sticks rope to rubrails.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tager View Post
Nylon rope would work, right? Nylon rope and epoxy? I know that there is some adhesive that sticks rope to rubrails.
Hi Tager,

Thanks for ressponding. I had given a lot of thought to nylon rope initially and kept coming up with an unsolvable problem. The rub rail is installed where the hull and deck meet. So there is a flange or actually two flanges there. Which wouldn't give much support to the rope as it sits there whole. It seems to me that you would need to slice the rope lengthwise to cover the flang of the deck and hull meeting. But slicing the rope lengthwise would cause it to fall apart. A person might be able to glue the strands in such a manner as to prevent the rope from falling apart. But then I don't know how flexible glues are after they have cured.

Have a Great Day,
Jim
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Old 10-27-2009
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Could try 3m fast tack trim adhesive, it's pretty good, I use it for mounting bicycle tires.
It has a pretty strong water proff bond, one of the uses mentioned on the site is gluing convertable tops on cars.

3M US: Fast Tack Trim Adhesive

Note: the bike tires are tubulars, not clinchers, they are essentially an inner tube with tread that gets glued to a shallow depression in the rim. The adhesive is needed to keep them from rolling off the rim in high speed turns. I've had them up to 50+mph on downhill runs.


On the split rope idea, Possibly soak the rope in a thin flexible glue to imprgnate it and allow it to retain form, then slit it with a hot knife that would melt the sides of the cut.

Ken.
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Old 10-27-2009
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Rather than replace the rub rail try cleaning off old paint and coat with Armour All vinyl protectant from an auto parts store.

Works on the rubber gasket around my ports, but needs to be recoated every year.
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Old 10-27-2009
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Wow Ken, I didn't know anyone still used tubulars. Last time I used 'em, Hinault was still racing. Cool.

As for the firehose idea, what about installing (bedding) a wooden rubrail to the hull and then screwing the hose onto that?
There's no penetration of the glass to replace the hose that way. I would avoid using anything hard on the hose itself. Gels and resins will harden the fibers just like glass and cause them it to come apart in chunks. Something with a little more flexibility, like RV roof paint, might give you better UV protection and stay soft enough to flex when it...well...rubs on stuff.

Another option if you wanted to use rope would be to start with a wood rubrail again, but rout a cove down it's length to half of the rope's diameter. That way it's held securely, can't unravel, and is easily replaced. A V groove rather than a cove would let you use whatever size rope you could find when it came time to replace it. I think you'd want to round or flatten the bottom of the groove so it didn't split along that line after repeated impacts.

Just a thought...
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Old 10-27-2009
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I used 5/8" 3-strand nylon line to replace the rub rail on my 8' Sinbad dinghy. The original rubrail was a 1/2" rubber insert in an aluminum channel along the gunnel. I ripped the rubber insert out and put the rope in its place. The nylon stands out more than the rubber did and offers much better protection. I used marine "GOOP" from the hardware store (same as SHOE GOOP but with some UV protection.) It adheres well and is still flexible. I also put in screws every foot or so on the inner strand. These allowed me to stretch the rope as I was putting it on and gave the glue time to set up. This has worked out so well that I plan on doing the same thing on my "big" boat.

The dinghy has no deck to hull joint. The hull-deck joint on my Venture 23 cutter is of the shoe box style with the deck overlapping the hull like the lid of a shoe box. There is a rub rail consisting of an aluminum channel with a 3/4" rubber insert running around the boat at the joint. I intend to replace this rubber in the same manner as on the dinghy. I'll be using black 3/4" 3-strand nylon line, screws, and Goop.

I would not use epoxy or any other non-flexible adhesive since you want the rub rail to flex a little on impact. Ditto with any non-flexible coating. There is a reason the original rub rails were rubber.
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Last edited by heinzir; 10-27-2009 at 09:49 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye View Post
Wow Ken, I didn't know anyone still used tubulars. Last time I used 'em, Hinault was still racing. Cool.
Yeah, they are old school, but you can't beat the ride of them.

I like the wooden backer idea, combines the most nautical visuals, polished wood and canvas or line.

Ken.
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