How much performance do you lose by .. - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 
  #1  
Old 02-11-2010
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 89
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
Petar is on a distinguished road
How much performance do you lose by ..

free standing reinforced mast such as freedom yacht or a hunter legend? I am not a performance freak nor a racer but like to sail as fast as possible dependent on wind condition at the time. are there any other peculiarities tied to free standing mast and are there distinct advantages and what are they?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 02-11-2010
FSMike's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 583
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 5
FSMike is on a distinguished road
Advantages - Less windage, less weight, your mast doesn't fall down if a shroud breaks, no expense of replacing standing rigging.

Loss of performance? I don't see why there should be any loss of performance but I've never owned one. Anybody out there experienced with them?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 02-11-2010
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
One advantage of a freestanding mast is that you can often hoist/drop the mainsail on almost any point of sail, since you can let it luff on almost any point of sail, since there are no shrouds or stays to get in its way.

Properly designed, there really isn't any significant performance penalty.

BTW, I wouldn't necessarily agree that a freestanding mast is going to have less weight aloft or present less windage. First, the freestanding mast has to be heavier than a properly stayed mast of the same height. Second, the freestanding mast is usually of greater size than a stayed mast of the same height.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 02-11-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Gloucester, MA
Posts: 586
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
klem is on a distinguished road
A good discussion on the benefits of these rigs can be found here
Free Standing Masts
Remember that they are trying to sell these rigs but they really make a good argument. I am actually surprised that we don't see more of these rigs.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 02-11-2010
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
The real reason we don't see more of these rigs is simple—the boat has to be designed with them from the beginning, as they are almost impossible to retrofit. Few designers are going to want to license the rig on their boat from another designer. Free-standing rigs also have some significant disadvantages over a properly stayed rig, and many designers are not willing to accept those compromises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klem View Post
Remember that they are trying to sell these rigs but they really make a good argument. I am actually surprised that we don't see more of these rigs.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 02-11-2010
zz4gta's Avatar
I don't discuss my member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 2,441
Thanks: 0
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 8
zz4gta is on a distinguished road
They're heavy, in the worst possible area. Weight in the bow, stern is bad enough, why put something so under engineered on a boat. There's a reason people spend the extra money for a carbon rig, use a dingy windex, switch to hi tech line instead of wire, and strip their halyards. Weight up high is bad.

No backstay to bend the mast, no way to tighten the forestay underway.
To me, it just seems like the engineers gave up and said, "lets just put big strong stick on the boat and get rid of all these pesky wires.

"Bryan and Carey report that the boat sails faster, points higher, balances better, and is just a lot more fun to sail than it ever was before. "

WOW, someone should let the Vendee and Volvo guys know they're doing it wrong. Or... B&C could learn how to tune a rig. There aslo was no mention of sails used in the before and after test. I hope they used the same sails, b/c if they ordered a new set, well, there's your speed, pointing and fun factor right there. Maybe I'm way off based and don't understand the technology, but I see this as being the bastard child of masts, not the "soon to be norm".

And why put wood in a mast? Wood rots.
__________________
Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 02-11-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
jbmayer is on a distinguished road
Maybe some answers..

A good carbon mast is lighter than an aluminium mast. A good carbon mast is tapered so the weight is lower which can be used to reduce keel weight. A good carbon mast bends when the breeze blows reducing power much the same as an automatic backstay. Upwind when you sheet in the main you bend the mast back tightening the jib luff. Off wind the mast bends forward adding draft to the jib. In all cases its faster. The reason AC boats and Volvo boats do not use a freestanding mast is the thin lightweight hulls that need the loads spreadout over a larger area. Like anything else all technologies are a compromise, and in certain applications some rigs are better than others. Its nice we have choices. When I was involved on designing the hydraulic lines for the Boeing 767 we decided that Cryofit connections were the best way to go. The Boeing 757 engineers decided that permaswage connections were better. Now both airplanes are flying with a different system of Hydraulic lines.
Jack
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 02-11-2010
tommays's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,244
Thanks: 1
Thanked 25 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 7
tommays will become famous soon enough
I will beg to differ

Freedom did a fine job on a wide range of boats with free standing carbon masts that have stood the test of time

Being faster than a standard mast up-wind is NOT on that list in some case they do well downwind
__________________
1970 Cal 29 Sea Fever

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1981 J24 Tangent 2930
Tommays
Northport NY


If a dirty bottom slows you down what do you think it does to your boat
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by tommays; 02-11-2010 at 10:31 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 02-11-2010
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,694
Thanks: 0
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
May did do well racing etc. BUT, IIRC in the last 2-4 months "Sail" had an article about advantages and disadvantages of different types of rigs, spreader quantity for a given height etc. The more spreaders, the lighter the mast column, also the narrower the spreader section needed to be. so a lighter mast and accesories by IIRC as much as 50%. A triple spreader rig can be lighter than a double, which is lighter than a single. Also a triple has a considerable % narrower base for the shrouds is needed, giving that rig a better upwind ability as per how close it can sail to the wind.

There was some discussion re the stay less rig, IIRC that was the heaviest.

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 02-11-2010
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,109
Thanks: 0
Thanked 71 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 7
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Most boats use a constant section mast while an unstayed rig has a tapered mast and no metal weight up top so it is lighter if well engineered. On a standard stayed rig if one of many small items breaks the rig is over the side. If it's not there it can't break. Vendee Globe - both Project Amazon and Lady Pepperell were very fast in round the world races. The biggest reason you don't see many is that no racing rules allow them. They have other advantages as well such as eliminating the risk of an accidental gybe. And they're as fast or faster than a conventional rig. Sailors are very conservative. Next time you fly - at over 500 mph, notice there are no stays on the wings. Airplanes gave up on rigging a long time ago and wings don't fall off very often.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
The Ultimate Performance Cruiser SailNet Racing Articles 0 06-27-2002 08:00 PM
Hull Preparation for Performance Dan Dickison Racing Articles 0 05-09-2002 08:00 PM
Mainsail Controls for Performance Dan Dickison Racing Articles 0 07-04-2001 08:00 PM
Performance Basics for Routing Michael Carr Seamanship Articles 0 11-16-2000 07:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:34 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.