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Windless cable size, cable manufacture and battery type?

9K views 25 replies 7 participants last post by  sailingdog 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi,
Engine = 4 108 Perkins
Boat 36'

We are about to install the cabling for our Lewmar H3 windless. The run is about 22 feet. It will be no further than 25 and no less than 20. As you can see I do not have an exact measurement. I will this weekend coming.
From what I can tell a 4/0 battery cable would be the size to use. I am not positive though. Can someone say for sure so I can make the purchase as soon as I make the exact measurement leaving room for error?

Lewmar

Lewmar H3 windless

12 volt
Motor Power = 1000W
Max Pull (Kg) = 890
Working Load (Kg) =215
Normal Current Draw = 85A
Circuit Breaker = 110A

Also I was thinking of going with Berkshire marine cable, made here in the USA. Any good or bad on this brand?
Berkshire Electric Cable Co., Leeds, Massachusetts USA

And what battery would be recommended? This battery will be used as a starting battery and a windless battery.

Any bad or good on this maintance free West Marine AGM PWC* Battery, 26 Ah, 500 MCA? It is both deep cycle and starting applications. Price seems ok.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/352878/377%20710/0/agm%20battery/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377 710&Ne=0&Ntt=agm battery&Ntk=Primary Search&Ntx=mode matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=agm battery&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=570

Ok maybe this one would be a better battery choice:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...9&classNum=570

Group 34; 55Ah; 12V; 795CCA; 970MCA. 120-minute reserve capacity
Measures 10-3/4"L x 6-7/8"W x 8-3/8"H
18-months' free replacement, 5 year pro-rated warranty

Thank you,
Chip
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Berkshire cable is excellent stuff...better than Ancor IMHO and less expensive to boot. I recommend them all the time, and use them quite a bit myself. The wire seems to be more flexible than the Ancor brand stuff. I like it a lot.

I would highly recommend getting a battery specifically for the windlass and placing it forward in the boat, near the anchor locker, so that you do not need to run 20'+ of 4/0 cable. The reason for this is simple, 4/0 cable is fairly expensive and fairly heavy, and by putting the battery forward and using a duocharge or echocharge unit to charge it, you can run much smaller diameter wire forward to handle the charging loads. Also, the shorter the run from the battery to the windlass, the higher the voltage will be and the better the windlass will work.

IMHO, the first battery you've picked is pretty lousy for this purpose. It isn't big enough. It is only 26 amp hours. Given that the battery should only be run down to the 50% depth of discharge level, that means you have effectively 13 amp-hours of operation time. The windlass (note spelling) draws 85 amps... if you have 13 amp-hours-that is less than 10 minutes of windlass use... I can see many situations, like where you have to reset the anchor multiple times, that that would not be enough power. Even the second battery is a bit light on power, given the demands that your windlass may have.

I'd also point out that the AMP-HOUR rating on most batteries is a 20-hour amp-hour rating, and if you are using significantly higher loads, the total amp-hours you will get out of a battery will be significantly less due to the Peukert factor. The higher the load is in relation to the battery bank size, the lower the effective available total amp-hours. In the case of your first battery, you'd probably be lucky to get ten minutes of use before the windlass killed the battery entirely.

Finally, I'd point out that you probably don't want to use the same battery for starting the engine as for powering the windlass. You could get royally screwed in certain situations where you killed the battery using the windlass, and couldn't start the engine because of that. Having a separate engine start battery that is not used for anything else is probably the wisest idea.

Hi,
Engine = 4 108 Perkins
Boat 36'

We are about to install the cabling for our Lewmar H3 windless. The run is about 22 feet. It will be no further than 25 and no less than 20. As you can see I do not have an exact measurement. I will this weekend coming.
From what I can tell a 4/0 battery cable would be the size to use. I am not positive though. Can someone say for sure so I can make the purchase as soon as I make the exact measurement leaving room for error?

Lewmar

Lewmar H3 windless

12 volt
Motor Power = 1000W
Max Pull (Kg) = 890
Working Load (Kg) =215
Normal Current Draw = 85A
Circuit Breaker = 110A

Also I was thinking of going with Berkshire marine cable, made here in the USA. Any good or bad on this brand?
Berkshire Electric Cable Co., Leeds, Massachusetts USA

And what battery would be recommended? This battery will be used as a starting battery and a windless battery.

Any bad or good on this maintance free West Marine AGM PWC* Battery, 26 Ah, 500 MCA? It is both deep cycle and starting applications. Price seems ok.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/352878/377%20710/0/agm%20battery/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377 710&Ne=0&Ntt=agm battery&Ntk=Primary Search&Ntx=mode matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=agm battery&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=570

Thank you,
Chip
 
#3 · (Edited)
Salingdog,
When I read through the searches in the forums on my questions the wiring to the house battery bank seemed to be what most people recommended.
You make good points.
What I was told is that when you use the windlass it is after you have started the engine and so the engine is charging the battery. I do now think that what you said may come true for me and that is using up that one battery on multiple anchoring attempts or times in a short period. Or by a hard to start motor etc. So going to the house bank may be the best bet.
I am not keen on a battery up near the bow. Space is an issue also, we have a mono hull.
I guess my worry is if you are at anchor for a few days\week what’s to say the house bank is not run down the morning you want to leave?
We at this time have four gulf cart batteries that do it all (start engine etc) for house bank. In the future we plan on having six AGM batteries and one starting battery..
Thanks for the input.
Chip
 
#4 ·
Chip
If you do not want a battery forward draw from the house bank for the windlass. Larger bank so much less of an issue. The engine start battery ideally is only used for engine, fuel pump if there is one and the panel. If your system is designed like most recommend your charging sources go to the house bank and either an Echocharge or ACR charges the start battery. 4/0 is fine but not inexpensive and will give you a 2% drop. Make sure to fuse it near the battery. And make sure the ends are properly crimped and covered with heat shrink for waterproofing.
 
#10 · (Edited)
They're vastly undersizing the wiring. For an 85 amp load, at 12 VDC, with a 25' run (one direction) 4 AWG wire is going to result in a 9.04% voltage drop. This is really a bad idea.

1/0 wire over a run of 25' (50' total) with a load of 85 amps @ 12 VDC, will result in a 3.57% voltage drop... Ideally, you should be using 4/0 cable for this.

The voltage drop calculator I used is located HERE.
Finally found the cable size in the windlass manual It is 4 AWG up to 50' run.
 
#14 ·
Josh is an idiot. Umm...what part of the wire is severely undersized did you not understand??

For a high-load device like this, you want a maximum of 3% voltage drop, preferably less.... You really want to oversize the wire a bit to allow for the eventual increase in resistance that happens with most wiring as it ages. Maine Sail, Mitiempo and I all are recommending that you go with 4/0 wire for a reason.

The greater the voltage drop, the higher the amperage the motor will draw, and the more likely the motor is to burn out. Using 2 AWG wire for that run will lead to a 5.7% voltage drop under ideal conditions. Once the wire and terminals start getting older, you'll see a bigger drop than that.

From the Lewmar Horizon 400 manual:

Check the voltage across the motor leads with the windlass on. (Proper voltage is 13.5 volts. Constant low voltage will destroy the motor).
Is the voltage low? (Below 11.0 volts on a 12 volt system).
By using 2 AWG wire, you're pretty much guaranteeing that this will be a recurring issue for your windlass.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I got a call back into Josh at Lewmar for clarification on the 2 AWG or 2/0 AWG. I did use the calculators for loss. He must have meant 2/0 wire or I heard wrong. I have spent a bundle of cash and time and my wife and I are bruised and cut from the bow roller and bow pulpit re-install. We do not want to cheap out on this final part of the project and ruin all the fine work we have done. No matter what he says 4/0 is the way we will go. In this case bigger is better and I had been planning on 4/0 anyway. Just was not sure. Before I spent the $$ I wanted to be sure I was not just wasting money. Even though I have been checking the calculator for wire size I just do not seem to get it. I understand the loss, voltage drop some. Any way it makes sense what you say. I can understand that.
It is 25' one way or 50' round trip.

I get:
2 AWG

Voltage drop = 0.683
Voltage at load end of circuit = 11.317
Per Cent voltage drop = 5.69

2/0 AWG
Voltage drop = 0.34
Voltage at load end of circuit = 1.66
Per Cent voltage drop = 2.83

There is a big difference.
We will go with 4/0 (0000) wire.
Anything else I should watch for?
Like end fittings etc?
Thanks,
Chip
 
#18 ·
Go with good terminals, like those from Ancor or FTZ and either get a proper battery terminal crimping tool or order the cables from Genuinedealz.com and have them crimp the terminals on for you. Add adhesive lined shrink tubing to further seal them.
Anything else I should watch for?
Like end fittings etc?
Thanks,
Chip
 
#20 ·
I have been looking at Genuinedealz.com and will take the final, final measurement tonight with my wife and then order tomorrow (Friday), I will order the 4/0 cables with the ends on and shrink tubing.
We will be ordering our battery cables as we replace the existing ones so they will get ends crimped on at that time. So a crimping tool would be nice however I think we can get by without it. Now for crimping terminal ends I have been eying a ratcheting crimping tool though, that seems something like the gift to myself that will keep on a crimping for me.
Chip
 
#21 · (Edited)
FWIW you might find it worth reading through this thread: Cleaning Corrosion from High Tension Electrical Cables - Page 2 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums . I went through the trials of installing a windlass just as you are now. A couple of thoughts:

1. ensure the lugs you order are the correct size for the studs on both your battery, the solenoid; and, your windlass.

2. Do not have the lugs installed before you run your wire. It is certain that the bends and curves in the wire will all but ensure that the lugs are not oriented in the correct direction for the studs. Schedule 4/0 wire does not like to be twisted, and in some cases, cannot be.

3. All this discussion of crimpers is of no use. Crimpers do not give a decent connection between the lugs and the wire and particularly 4/0 wire. Instead, I used a "Swage-It" tool which completely compresses the lugs around and into the wire. By adding your adheasinve shrink tubing beforehand and then sliding it up and over the ends of the lugs, you end up with completely water tight connections. And the Swage-It tool is inexpensive and very usefull aboard.

Good luck.
 
#23 · (Edited)
3. All this discussion of crimpers is of no use. Crimpers do not give a diecent connection between the lugs and the wire and particularly 4/0 wire.
This is actually one of the more amusing statements I've seen lately, especially as I have crimped LOTS of 4/0 lugs... What factual basis do you have for this statement?:confused: Have you actually ever used a tool designed for the purpose and tried to pull out a wire?

The right crimper, for the right lug, will make an excellent connection, as it is specifically engineered to do by the manufacturer of the lugs or by a third party manufacturer.

For lugs I use an FTZ Industries Correct Crimp crimper. I use it with FTZ industries heavy duty lugs and use the specified dies for crimping the specific terminals (FTZ Lug / Die Specs). This crimper exerts 10,000 pounds of crimp pressure on the lug and is what FTZ stands behind to crimp their lugs. Never once had any issues over hundreds & hundreds of lugs crimped. My local battery wholesaler who makes tons more battery cables than I do uses the same crimper, day in day out.

The FTZ or the Quick Cable Hexacrimp are excellent tools with the proper sized dies for the heavy duty lugs both sell. Many of the crimpers from HFT and other makers are NOT designed for the cast heavy duty marine type lugs, have the wrong sized dies and can over crimp, pinch and fracture the wire internally.

Feel free to use your swage it tool, I have no doubt that it may make a decent connection, but to say that proper crimp tools do not make a proper connection is simply poor information without any factual basis..

BTW there are only two brands of heavy duty lugs I will even use these days. I use the ones made by Quick Cable and the ones made by FTZ. The Ancor lugs have gone WAY down in quality lately course they never made any lugs to begin with only sourced them from the lowest bidder. Their wire is not even theirs and is made by multiple companies some US and some not.

HexCrimp (LINK)

FTZ Correct Crimp (LINK)
 
#22 ·
This is the one I use but probably not worth it for the crimps most owners need as Genuinedealz charges only $1 labor per crimp. I see the point about aligning the lugs properly but if you lay the entire cable out and then connect the lugs to the windlass, solenoid, and batteries after it should work ok. A good crimper isn't inexpensive unfortunately and hard to justify for a few crimps. You may be able to rent a crimper locally however.
 

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#24 ·
This is actually one of the more amusing statements I've seen lately, especially as I have crimped LOTS of 4/0 lugs... What factual basis do you have for this statement?
The information was given to me by one of our neighbors who, with 40+ years in the industry, is the chief electrical engineer for one of the largest electrical wire and equipment distributors in the US. His comment was in answer to my question as to which "crimper" I should use when I was installing my own windlass. Unless I was willing to spend several hundred dollars for a tool for which I would only have very limited use, he indicated that the less costly devices sold by Lowes, Home-Depot et al, simply made poor connections. By comparison, the "Swage-It" tool is inexpensive, has many applications, can be used with relative ease in the narrow and tight confines of a boat; and, by applying uniform compressive pressure to the throats of the lugs ensures that the material of the lugs "flows" in and around the stands of the copper wire providing the best connection--just as does a swaged fitting on rigging wire.

Frankly, I don't care one way or another, nor am I an expert on the subject. However, I did, in 2006, go through the process the OP is going through, and thought he might benefit by my experience. Or not.

FWIW...
 
#25 ·
Unless I was willing to spend several hundred dollars for a tool for which I would only have very limited use, he indicated that the less costly devices sold by Lowes, Home-Depot et al, simply made poor connections.
SV,

I agree 100% with that sentiment. That is not however what you wrote, hence my response. You made a broad based factual type of statement that was read and interpreted by me to include all lug crimpers as not being effective, not just cheap HD ones.

I also own one of the Ancor hammer type crimp tools and would not wish that tool on my worst enemy, especially at $90.00.:confused: Does it crimp? Sure, but not a crimp I would want owm my own boat..

Like you I would probably opt for the Swage-It tool over the Ancor hammer crimper, but I'd opt for my lug crimper over the Swage-It every time and yes, I do own Swage-It tools also..;)
 
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