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Honda eu2000i and air conditioning

116K views 85 replies 45 participants last post by  stans2000 
#1 ·
Honda eu2000i and Air Conditioning

Just heard about a new product from Dometic. It's called a SmartStart controller. It reduces the amount of amps needed to start an air conditioner by 65%. I spoke to a tech from Dometic, who seemed to think, that a Honda 2000 could run a 16,000 btu Cruisair a/c. The cost for this unit is about $360. Sounds interesting. Sure would keep my wife "happy". Has anyone heard anything about this. It's only been available a few months.
Marc
 
#2 ·
I ran a small trailer a/c unit on just one honda 2000 w/o the comtroller. The honda's have the eco switch, which made a big difference. I have a second honda generator w/the link cord, but haven't had a need for it yet. Interested to hear more about the smart controller though, in case I want to run a larger a/c in the future.
 
#5 ·
Marc, I would guess it is a large capacitor with some brains added to it. If you charge the capacitor up, then allow both it and the generator to supply starting power to the load at the same time...presto-chango, you've doubled or tripled (etc) the amount of power being fed into the start-up process.

$360 sounds like a steep price to do that but I suppose with a small market and multiple mark-ups...
 
#7 ·
I have been talking to a potential boat seller ( I am in the market to buy right now) who has a mermaid 16,500 BTU air conditioner that he runs with the EU2000. He told me that it works fine, but he disconnected the blower for the air conditioner and wired a seperate socket for a second extension cord. He says the little Honda will start the compressor without the load of the fan. After a few seconds when the Honda gets through the surge, he plugs in the cord powering the blower.

I was thinking, if this worked, why not just wire in a switch between the blower and the ac power ?
 
#8 ·
I have been talking to a potential boat seller ( I am in the market to buy right now) who has a mermaid 16,500 BTU air conditioner that he runs with the EU2000. He told me that it works fine, but he disconnected the blower for the air conditioner and wired a seperate socket for a second extension cord. He says the little Honda will start the compressor without the load of the fan. After a few seconds when the Honda gets through the surge, he plugs in the cord powering the blower.

I was thinking, if this worked, why not just wire in a switch between the blower and the ac power ?
Hmmm. Sounds interesting. What would happen when the A/C reaches the temp. and the compressor shuts off. Would you have to manually turn the switch off, and then on, to start the cooling cycle again?
 
#10 ·
and I did, and Paul says:

"disconected the Thermostat.

We use the cabin fans for circulation and begin by closing off the cabins untill the main salon is comfortable and then open up the cabins one by one to keep it comfortable. At night we sleep under a blanket.

The compressor does not recycle."

I can think of times when a few bucks worth of gasoline would be a great trade for a night like that if the Honda doesn't care.
 
#12 ·
Here's another method from the Gemini 105 forum:

"I solved the problem.

How do you use a Honda EU2000i Generator to run a 16,500 btu Mermaid AC on econo-mode?

Answer: Run the AC saltwater cooling pump and AC air blower from an inverter and at the same time run the Battery Charger.

The generator has power to spare in running the compressor and battery charger.

My Mermaid AC freezes me out at 58 degrees in the cabin so I will still use the 5200 btu window AC after the Mermaid AC cools and dehumidifys the cabin. This takes about 20 minutes.
I have photo's posted in the Quiet Place 766 Album.



paul cobb 766 Quiet Place"
 
#13 ·
bb32, it sounds very unlikely to happen as the power need will just increase with additional charger-batt-inverter lose, unless you take more from batts than you replace it. I run my Vector Turbo 12,000btu from my 2000eu for one year now, and I'm ready to dispose it on a garbage. The Honda is really good charging batteries and running our freezer, but when we run the AC, it scream so loud I use it just when absolutely alone on anchorage, and unity siting on dingy at least 10' away. Charging batt plus freezer, runs 14 hours on a gallon, but AC last 3,5 hours on each tank. Since it gasp and sometimes goes dead, we set temperature the lowest possible as not to cycle on/of. I'm looking for a more powerful generator for my needs and now considering Onan, Kohler or NortherLights.
 
#14 ·
The Gemini catamaran has a propane refrigerator, so that load is not factored in. Might be too much for a Honda 2000 with both AC and 12V fridge going at once.
Running the circulator and fan off the inverter allows the Honda to absorb the compressor startup load without popping the breaker. Yes the inverter will reduce the efficiency somewhat, but it will be way more efficient than running two Hondas as some owners have done or going to a much larger and heavier
diesel genset ($10,000+?)
Others use the Yamaha 3500 but it is larger and bulkier to stow.
 
#15 ·
Using an inverter to power the fan and other AC loads will likely work. As pointed out the Generator can handle the run load without problem.

I've used this method at work but had the ability to limit charger current. I do not think it would work with my charger because it draws so much and I cannot easily limit the current.

I would try this and just leave the charger off and run the batteries down, and charge them later, or get a small charger, maybe a 10amp and use that one.

Or just remember to shut off the charger when the AC starts.
 
#16 ·
We install soft starts on all our pumps over 25 HP. They are solid state controllers that reduce voltage to the motor during start, then a very heavy set of tiny contactors close under no load, and the electronics then go off line. What I think is unique about the Dometic device is that it supplies full power to the air conditioner all the time, and probably drops the voltage for a short time when it senses the high starting inrush. A pretty clever idea.

Gary H. Lucas
 
#19 ·
We install soft starts on all our pumps over 25 HP. They are solid state controllers that reduce voltage to the motor during start, then a very heavy set of tiny contactors close under no load, and the electronics then go off line. What I think is unique about the Dometic device is that it supplies full power to the air conditioner all the time, and probably drops the voltage for a short time when it senses the high starting inrush. A pretty clever idea.

Gary H. Lucas
A new thread to Honda Owners claims that a $15 hard start capacitor will do the same thing as a Dometic SmartStart device.
Is this true? If so, how is it done?
Marc
 
#17 ·
Guys, its simple math. If Gen is capable to run pump, fan and compressor, just plug it directly as mostly AC unities can switch them on in phases to not overload the system at start-up. If not, using your inverter will drain the missing power from batt and these will deplet if you don't charge at same rate, without limit. Add more by using the inverter loss. I agree you can run it for a while then charge the used amps later, but you are simply taking the missing power form your batts; an idea used by Martervolt to create the power combi.
 
#18 ·
The even simpler math is I can't afford the price, weight and space required for a diesel generator or a Mastervolt Combi so this workaround is good enough for me.
This accomplishes exactly what the Combi does at 1/100 of the cost.
I was well aware of the the Combi when I posted this and just as aware that I (and many others) can't have one.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Understanding the Dometic SmartStart

Hello from Dometic Marine - Makers of Cruisair and Marine Air Systems Brand Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Systems.

We've been monitoring this thread and decided to join the forum to lend some expertise and to help everyone out. We have reviewed the forum rules and regulations regarding commercial interests, and we hope that this post in no way offends or violates anything. All we want is for everyone to have the facts. The new SmartStart is a revolutionary new product that is unlike any other soft starter or hard start add-on in the industry. It is very important to understand how it differs so you can make the right choices for your individual situations.

Important information about the dangers of Portable Gasoline Generators
Before we begin, it is important to clearly state that Dometic does not condone the use of portable gasoline generators for any marine application since both the US Coast Guard and the ABYC strongly caution against it. Portable gasoline generators are not properly marinized and they present life-threatening risks and dangers, including carbon monoxide poisoning and risk of explosion since they are typically not ignition protected. For more information, please refer to the USCG bulletins on this topic available online at http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/bscscan68a.pdf and http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC74.pdf. Also, please refer to the ABYC document TH-22 (http://www.abycinc.org/th-22.pdf) where they discuss the use of portable generators on boats.

Test Setup and Equipment
In order to provide you with the most accurate information, Dometic obtained a Honda EU2000i generator and a Supco SPP6E Super Boost for side-by-side testing with the new Dometic SmartStart. Both the Honda and Supco products are very good, and by no means was this study conducted in order to put down either one. This study is meant to help everyone better understand how the SmartStart is different and where and why it can solve the problems discussed in this thread where other products cannot.

The current surge caused when an air conditioner compressor starts up is very short in duration, typically 150-300 milliseconds. Hand-held clamp-on current meters typically cannot measure this surge accurately because they typically display an averaged reading about once per second. As a result, the reading obtained with a clamp-on meter is always much lower than what has actually occurred. For our SmartStart development which started over one year ago, we at Dometic developed a custom and very specialized piece of test equipment to accurately capture and measure the start surge accurately. This specialized equipment along with an oscilloscope was to carry out the following study. Below is a photo of the test setup which conducted outdoors so we could run the Honda generator. We used a Cruisair model STQ16-R410A Turbo self-contained 16,000 BTU air conditioner for most of the testing.


Outdoor Test Lab Setup

Technical Differences between the Dometic SmartStart and the Supco SPP6E (Class E Super Boost)
The Supco SPP6E Super Boost device consists of a 88-106MFD start capacitor connected in series with an electronically-controlled, solid-state potential relay. Using voltage sensing, it connects the start capacitor in parallel to the air conditioners run capacitor during the start up. As the voltage across the run capacitor (Run winding to Start winding) increases during the start, the device switches out the start capacitor at a preset level or after a timeout period expires. This sequence partially mimics the behavior of a full hard-start kit (start cap with a mechanical start relay) but not exactly. A true potential start relay has its coil connected across the compressor Common and the Start winding. The voltage behavior between these two compressor terminals is a little more predicable during a start-up. As a result, a true start relay can accomplish a more reliable disengagement of the start capacitor. Nevertheless, the Supco Super Boost does provide a good portion of the benefit of a true hard-start kit and reduced cost. Based on our measurements (shown below), the Super Boost provided a startup current surge reduction of about 20-25%.

The new Dometic SmartStart is completely different. The SmartStart uses a microprocessor to provide real-time control of the applied voltage and current to the Start winding and Run winding independently. The voltage applied to the start winding is also shifted in phase by an internal start capacitor. The application of voltage is so precise that each half alternation of the applied AC power is individually handled by the microprocessor. Then, using back EMF detection, the SmartStart determines when the motor's rotor actually begins to rotate. The SmartStart then accelerates the rotor until it has achieved full speed. Then, at a very precise moment when the current waveform passes through zero, the SmartStart seamlessly bypasses its internal control devices with relays to connect the Run winding directly with L2 and disconnecting from the Start winding.

The SmartStart's intelligence then even goes beyond this. Using the information it gathers from each start, it actually "learns" from what happened during one startup to determine what to use on its next startup. So, immediately after installing and using it on for the very first time, the SmartStart may take up to 10 startups for it to optimize itself to the absolute lowest possible starting current. After that, it continues to fine tune its startup behavior from start to start, up or down, depending on age of the compressor, environmental conditions, and voltage.

The result of this microprocessor-controlled automation and recursive learning is the absolutely lowest possible startup current required for each individual compressor and SmartStart combination. For all models of the SmartStart, the average start-up current reduction achieved is 65%.

Test Results
Two sets of tests were run: One on utility power and one on generator power. The Honda EU2000i has an "ECO" switch that allows for economy mode operation. This economy mode of course results in the generator running at a lower throttle setting to save fuel. However, there is a trade-off. When ECO mode is turned ON, the generator cannot respond quite as quickly to rapid changes in load current. Under certain test conditions, the compressor start surge on generator power caused the generator's output voltage to drop drastically and to become erratic when the compressor start faltered, and also caused the generator's maximum output current to be clamped. So, in order to accurately quantify what each hardware configuration would do, accurate start current data was captured using utility power. Later in the generator tests, instantaneous voltage fluctuation was also measured. In the end, both current surge and voltage drop do matter since voltage drop can dramatically and sometimes detrimentally affect other equipment that may be operating on the same generator.


Analysis
The Honda EU2000i is quite a potent little device. Regardless of the start component configuration, it was able to start the 16000 BTU system reliably when the ECO mode was turned off. When the ECO mode was turned on, however, the generator had trouble with the standard configuration and with the Supco SPP6E installed. The Supco Super Boost did help, but the resulting voltage drop to around 67V (46%) was problematic in that it did sometimes reset the digital controls. Other equipment running off the same generator would have also been affected.

The SmartStart made a dramatic difference. With the ECO switch turned on, the generator was able to tolerate the 18 amp start surge with only about a 20% drop in voltage. With the ECO switch turned off, the generator didn't even flinch (i.e. no measurable voltage drop).

Summary
As was cited elsewhere in this thread, the Honda EU2000i can support a 16,000 BTU air conditioner without any added hardware. But as our testing showed, this would only work if the ECO mode was turned off. Adding the Supco SPP6E provides a marginal improvement, but for our specific test with the 16000 BTU system, it could not guarantee a reliable start-up if the generator was operating in ECO mode. Beyond this, if other equipment is already loading the generator (e.g. sea water pump), that will further reduce the available amperage for the compressor start-up. Adding the Dometic SmartStart provides a dramatic improvement, provides a reliable start under almost all conditions, and will allow the generator to be run in ECO mode, which will certainly reduce fuel consumption.

Dometic is very happy to contribute to this forum; however, we cannot guarantee that someone will always have the opportunity to monitor it at all times. We will do our best to return to this thread in the coming days to answer any follow-up questions. In the future, others from Dometic may use this user ID to answer other questions on this forum.

Thank you for your continued interest and support.

Thank you.
M. Giovanetti
Director of Technology
Dometic Marine Corporation
 
#23 ·
Hello from Dometic Marine - Makers of Cruisair and Marine Air Systems Brand Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Systems.

We've been monitoring this thread and decided to join the forum to lend some expertise and to help everyone out. We have reviewed the forum rules and regulations regarding commercial interests, and we hope that this post in no way offends or violates anything. All we want is for everyone to have the facts. The new SmartStart is a revolutionary new product that is unlike any other soft starter or hard start add-on in the industry. It is very important to understand how it differs so you can make the right choices for your individual situations.

Important information about the dangers of Portable Gasoline Generators
Before we begin, it is important to clearly state that Dometic does not condone the use of portable gasoline generators for any marine application since both the US Coast Guard and the ABYC strongly caution against it. Portable gasoline generators are not properly marinized and they present life-threatening risks and dangers, including carbon monoxide poisoning and risk of explosion since they are typically not ignition protected. For more information, please refer to the USCG bulletins on this topic available online at http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/bscscan68a.pdf and http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC74.pdf. Also, please refer to the ABYC document TH-22 (http://www.abycinc.org/th-22.pdf) where they discuss the use of portable generators on boats.

Test Setup and Equipment
In order to provide you with the most accurate information, Dometic obtained a Honda EU2000i generator and a Supco SPP6E Super Boost for side-by-side testing with the new Dometic SmartStart. Both the Honda and Supco products are very good, and by no means was this study conducted in order to put down either one. This study is meant to help everyone better understand how the SmartStart is different and where and why it can solve the problems discussed in this thread where other products cannot.

The current surge caused when an air conditioner compressor starts up is very short in duration, typically 150-300 milliseconds. Hand-held clamp-on current meters typically cannot measure this surge accurately because they typically display an averaged reading about once per second. As a result, the reading obtained with a clamp-on meter is always much lower than what has actually occurred. For our SmartStart development which started over one year ago, we at Dometic developed a custom and very specialized piece of test equipment to accurately capture and measure the start surge accurately. This specialized equipment along with an oscilloscope was to carry out the following study. Below is a photo of the test setup which conducted outdoors so we could run the Honda generator. We used a Cruisair model STQ16-R410A Turbo self-contained 16,000 BTU air conditioner for most of the testing.


Outdoor Test Lab Setup

Technical Differences between the Dometic SmartStart and the Supco SPP6E (Class E Super Boost)
The Supco SPP6E Super Boost device consists of a 88-106MFD start capacitor connected in series with an electronically-controlled, solid-state potential relay. Using voltage sensing, it connects the start capacitor in parallel to the air conditioners run capacitor during the start up. As the voltage across the run capacitor (Run winding to Start winding) increases during the start, the device switches out the start capacitor at a preset level or after a timeout period expires. This sequence partially mimics the behavior of a full hard-start kit (start cap with a mechanical start relay) but not exactly. A true potential start relay has its coil connected across the compressor Common and the Start winding. The voltage behavior between these two compressor terminals is a little more predicable during a start-up. As a result, a true start relay can accomplish a more reliable disengagement of the start capacitor. Nevertheless, the Supco Super Boost does provide a good portion of the benefit of a true hard-start kit and reduced cost. Based on our measurements (shown below), the Super Boost provided a startup current surge reduction of about 20-25%.

The new Dometic SmartStart is completely different. The SmartStart uses a microprocessor to provide real-time control of the applied voltage and current to the Start winding and Run winding independently. The voltage applied to the start winding is also shifted in phase by an internal start capacitor. The application of voltage is so precise that each half alternation of the applied AC power is individually handled by the microprocessor. Then, using back EMF detection, the SmartStart determines when the motor's rotor actually begins to rotate. The SmartStart then accelerates the rotor until it has achieved full speed. Then, at a very precise moment when the current waveform passes through zero, the SmartStart seamlessly bypasses its internal control devices with relays to connect the Run winding directly with L2 and disconnecting from the Start winding.

The SmartStart's intelligence then even goes beyond this. Using the information it gathers from each start, it actually "learns" from what happened during one startup to determine what to use on its next startup. So, immediately after installing and using it on for the very first time, the SmartStart may take up to 10 startups for it to optimize itself to the absolute lowest possible starting current. After that, it continues to fine tune its startup behavior from start to start, up or down, depending on age of the compressor, environmental conditions, and voltage.

The result of this microprocessor-controlled automation and recursive learning is the absolutely lowest possible startup current required for each individual compressor and SmartStart combination. For all models of the SmartStart, the average start-up current reduction achieved is 65%.

Test Results
Two sets of tests were run: One on utility power and one on generator power. The Honda EU2000i has an "ECO" switch that allows for economy mode operation. This economy mode of course results in the generator running at a lower throttle setting to save fuel. However, there is a trade-off. When ECO mode is turned ON, the generator cannot respond quite as quickly to rapid changes in load current. Under certain test conditions, the compressor start surge on generator power caused the generator's output voltage to drop drastically and to become erratic when the compressor start faltered, and also caused the generator's maximum output current to be clamped. So, in order to accurately quantify what each hardware configuration would do, accurate start current data was captured using utility power. Later in the generator tests, instantaneous voltage fluctuation was also measured. In the end, both current surge and voltage drop do matter since voltage drop can dramatically and sometimes detrimentally affect other equipment that may be operating on the same generator.


Analysis
The Honda EU2000i is quite a potent little device. Regardless of the start component configuration, it was able to start the 16000 BTU system reliably when the ECO mode was turned off. When the ECO mode was turned on, however, the generator had trouble with the standard configuration and with the Supco SPP6E installed. The Supco Super Boost did help, but the resulting voltage drop to around 67V (46%) was problematic in that it did sometimes reset the digital controls. Other equipment running off the same generator would have also been affected.

The SmartStart made a dramatic difference. With the ECO switch turned on, the generator was able to tolerate the 18 amp start surge with only about a 20% drop in voltage. With the ECO switch turned off, the generator didn't even flinch (i.e. no measurable voltage drop).

Summary
As was cited elsewhere in this thread, the Honda EU2000i can support a 16,000 BTU air conditioner without any added hardware. But as our testing showed, this would only work if the ECO mode was turned off. Adding the Supco SPP6E provides a marginal improvement, but for our specific test with the 16000 BTU system, it could not guarantee a reliable start-up if the generator was operating in ECO mode. Beyond this, if other equipment is already loading the generator (e.g. sea water pump), that will further reduce the available amperage for the compressor start-up. Adding the Dometic SmartStart provides a dramatic improvement, provides a reliable start under almost all conditions, and will allow the generator to be run in ECO mode, which will certainly reduce fuel consumption.

Dometic is very happy to contribute to this forum; however, we cannot guarantee that someone will always have the opportunity to monitor it at all times. We will do our best to return to this thread in the coming days to answer any follow-up questions. In the future, others from Dometic may use this user ID to answer other questions on this forum.

Thank you for your continued interest and support.

Thank you.
M. Giovanetti
Director of Technology
Dometic Marine Corporation
That was a nice writeup. As long as you do not "push" your products here, I have no problem with you participating.

Brian
 
#24 ·
Thanks for the information Dometic. I'd point out that most users of the small gasoline powered generators are at little risk for explosion, since most use them on deck or on the swim platform, not inside the cabin. The carbon monoxide is a risk, but that is true of all ICE equipment.
 
#27 ·
Giovanetti, it's indeed a nice write-up, and clever product idea. I'm a natural prospect for its use, and will be even more delighted if works on my EU2000i plus your VTD12K I have on my boat. It's supposedely even less power hungry than the STQ series.
 
#29 · (Edited)
The Smart-Start is not really new, similar systems have been around for RVs for a while, but it sounds like the dometic unit is a lot more sophisticated.

Having said that I doubt you need one. I've heard of lots of people running 16,000 BTU a/c from the Honda 2000 and I run my 7,000 BTU unit from an EU1000i with no problem - no smartstart and in eco mode

Go for the Honda and get the Smart-Start if you need it (they do work).
 
#31 ·
Don't look at me, we don't even have an aircon at home....:eek:

but but but...doesn't all this machinery make an awful lot of noise ?
 
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