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  #11  
Old 02-24-2010
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Sails. You can paypal me the $1000.
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Old 02-24-2010
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Hydrogen is actually a horrible fuel. The fuel in its natural state is far too volatile to use safely in most applications. To use it safely in an automotive or marine application, it would probably have to be converted to a metal hydride form. The problem with this is that the fuel is now much lower in energy density than it is in its natural form. Also, there is no way to quickly re-fuel a metal hydride cell short of swapping it out. To support swapping it out, you'd need to have a large infrastructure of stations that have the charged metal hydride cells available to swap.

Currently, the easiest and safest high-energy density fuel is liquid hydrocarbons—namely diesel or gasoline... this is why they are used in 99.9999% of the mobile transportation applications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klem View Post
If there is a solution to this, it is going to have to be out of the box. I am not a fan at all of hybrid electric propulsion systems for boats unless they are used to extend range in rare circumstances on a truly electric system. These systems are less efficient, have more stuff to go wrong, etc. The reason why hydrogen was hyped for so long is that it is a reasonable media in which to transfer energy quickly. Too bad it is not in the realm of practical for a project like this.
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  #13  
Old 02-24-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Hydrogen is actually a horrible fuel. The fuel in its natural state is far too volatile to use safely in most applications. To use it safely in an automotive or marine application, it would probably have to be converted to a metal hydride form. The problem with this is that the fuel is now much lower in energy density than it is in its natural form. Also, there is no way to quickly re-fuel a metal hydride cell short of swapping it out. To support swapping it out, you'd need to have a large infrastructure of stations that have the charged metal hydride cells available to swap.

Currently, the easiest and safest high-energy density fuel is liquid hydrocarbons—namely diesel or gasoline... this is why they are used in 99.9999% of the mobile transportation applications.
Sheldon? Is that you?
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Old 02-24-2010
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Sails. You can paypal me the $1000.
Nope. No battery charging capability. Thanks for playing, though.
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Old 02-24-2010
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Sure they do.
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Old 02-24-2010
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Your answer is not a pure electric system, but rather a hybrid system. After all, you're willing to put up with running an engine while underway, so why not run a genset to power your electric motor.


Epod 2000 36Amp electric motor from re-e-power.com $2,750
Honda 2000i generator $1150
Xantrex 60C 60 amp charger $250
3x group 27 deep cycle batteries $300 (or less)
2.5gal gas can from gas station (with gas!) $10 Honda genset runs 15hr on 1.1gal of gas.

Total cost <$3000. Weight, is much MUCH less than your yanmar with tank and you get a high torque, quiet, reliable system. There is also some cool features such as the genset which you can use to charge your house bank (like your alternator). There is redundancy, so if your charger packs up you can still charge DC directly off the Honda. If the honda packs up you still have some range in the batteries themselves. Also, you now have 3 more 12v batteres which you can integrate into your house system if you so choose.

The re-e-power website appears to be not functioning to full capacity but rest assured that the motor is up to the task.

Medsailor

PS No need to send $1000. If you really like my suggestion or a variation thereof you could send me $100 and I would promise to squander it on wine, women and boats.... but not necessarily in that order.
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  #17  
Old 02-24-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Hydrogen is actually a horrible fuel. The fuel in its natural state is far too volatile to use safely in most applications. To use it safely in an automotive or marine application, it would probably have to be converted to a metal hydride form. The problem with this is that the fuel is now much lower in energy density than it is in its natural form. Also, there is no way to quickly re-fuel a metal hydride cell short of swapping it out. To support swapping it out, you'd need to have a large infrastructure of stations that have the charged metal hydride cells available to swap.

Currently, the easiest and safest high-energy density fuel is liquid hydrocarbons—namely diesel or gasoline... this is why they are used in 99.9999% of the mobile transportation applications.
I agree completely (I guess I wasn't clear in my first post that it is actually a bad idea in practice). They haven't figured out how to store hydrogen since storing it as pure hydrogen is a bad idea for several reasons. To my knowledge though, it was the only way of doing a pure electric drive system with quick refueling/recharging. I saw a few prototype EV's that had swappable batteries and that was a nightmare.

Regarding the hybrid system that is laid out using a 2kw honda unit, it will have to be a very small boat to be propelled at hull speed. Since the battery storage capacity is so small, the generator would have to be running if you are actually trying to go somewhere which in my mind defeats the purpose. I have expressed my distaste for these systems before, it just doesn't make sense to go through so many energy conversions. Other than probably not coming close to the power output requirement, that is the closest of the possibilities but would not represent an improvement in my mind.
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Med, thanks for laying out the shopping list. That's the kind of thinking I like. There are a couple of stumbling blocks.
1) There is no way that the generator is going to be able to power the motor for 15 hours.
2) Fitting the batteries, controller, and generator into the available space.


Not perfect, but the best idea I have seen yet.
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Old 02-25-2010
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Umm... 2750 + 1150 + 300 + 250 is a bit more than $3000 last I checked. Weight wise, this is also going to be more than the 320 lbs. of the Yanmar. The three batteries are probably close to 210 lbs. and the generator is probably another 100 and you haven't even gotten to the Xantrex or the Epod motor or fuel tank.

Your math sucks...

[QUOTE=MedSailor;573709]Your answer is not a pure electric system, but rather a hybrid system. After all, you're willing to put up with running an engine while underway, so why not run a genset to power your electric motor.


Epod 2000 36Amp electric motor from re-e-power.com $2,750
Honda 2000i generator $1150
Xantrex 60C 60 amp charger $250
3x group 27 deep cycle batteries $300 (or less)
2.5gal gas can from gas station (with gas!) $10 Honda genset runs 15hr on 1.1gal of gas.

Total cost <$3000. Weight, is much MUCH less than your yanmar with tank and you get a high t
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a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
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—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #20  
Old 02-26-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klem View Post
Regarding the hybrid system that is laid out using a 2kw honda unit, it will have to be a very small boat to be propelled at hull speed. Since the battery storage capacity is so small, the generator would have to be running if you are actually trying to go somewhere which in my mind defeats the purpose. I have expressed my distaste for these systems before, it just doesn't make sense to go through so many energy conversions. Other than probably not coming close to the power output requirement, that is the closest of the possibilities but would not represent an improvement in my mind.
Yes the generator would have to be running all the time. This doesn't defeat anything in the case of the OP's post. His intention was *not* to have a silent, high battery capacity system. Currently his Yanmar has to run all the time in order to go anywhere.... the Honda is just quieter, smaller, more efficient and more versatile.

I do think the model specified would push the boat at his stated hull speed. Unfortunately the website has taken down some of the specs while they upgrade but you can see some good videos on youtube of similarly sized boats going nice and fast. 60amps is the max sustained rating for those motors and the charger was sized accordingly.

As for the OPs question about not being able to power the boat for 15hrs you might be right. Honday says the genset runs for 15hrs on 1.1gal of gas but closer review shows that's 1/4 load. Full rated load is 4hrs (1//4gal per hr), so you might need to upgrade to a 3 or 5 gal tank to get your 15hrs. Still 1/4 gal per hour ain't bad....

SD thanks for the math correction. My intention was to say "<5,000" which was the target number in the original post. There is even enough money left over in the budget for connecting wires, sound insulation, a proper tank and $100left to paypal to me for Rum.

Medsailor
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Last edited by MedSailor; 02-26-2010 at 12:48 PM.
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