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  #241  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
The first deck fittings I used the particular tape I'm using on were done nearly 2 years ago and so far no problems. I was worried that the tape might leave a stain behind but that doesn't seem to be a problem either.
I guess the properties that make the tape good for electrical use in that the tape is likely to be exposed to the weather and must keep water out, also make it good for sealing deck fittings.

Here is a description of the particular type of tape I'm using...



NITTO no. 15 self-fusing butyl tape

Nitto no. 15 is a self-fusing butyl-based tape that does not require a liner, thereby reducing the time required to apply the tape during assembly. The tape has extremely good electrical properties, superior weatherability and resistance to water. Established areas of application include: corrosion protection of wires and cables on through connections and branch couplings, insulation of high-voltage cables, sealing cable heads, repairing cable sheaths, corrosion protection of pipes, pipe connections and installations, as filler material to compensate for unevenness.

-55°C to +105°C
Excellent workability due to linerless system
Exceptional electrical properties
Extremely resistant to moisture, water and chemicals
Superior weatherability and ozone resistance
Self-amalgamates within 12 hours when stretched at 100 - 150%
There is really no such thing as a "butyl tape" that does not require a "liner" or waxed paper backing on the roll. That tape is definitely a mix of butyl and other products. Real butyl will stick to itself just by looking at it and there is no way to make it "linerless"....

I suspect your tape is working by compression, which can't be underestimated... Still if I were going to do all that labor I'd personally want to choose a butyl tape intended for marine applications.
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  #242  
Old 03-07-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
There is really no such thing as a "butyl tape" that does not require a "liner" or waxed paper backing on the roll. That tape is definitely a mix of butyl and other products. Real butyl will stick to itself just by looking at it and there is no way to make it "linerless"....

I suspect your tape is working by compression, which can't be underestimated... Still if I were going to do all that labor I'd personally want to choose a butyl tape intended for marine applications.
I can't disagree, but I'm happy to be the guinea pig for a solution that is readily available (I thought I'd give it a go because I couldn't find thicker butyl tape) and is quite cheap. If others give it a go they should bear in mind that its not specifically for marine use.
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  #243  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
I can't disagree, but I'm happy to be the guinea pig for a solution that is readily available...
As one who previously tried a readily available alternative (which wasn't terrible, just a little too runny), I learned my lesson and am now happy to pay a few dollars extra to let Maine Sail be the guinea pig with close to 50 other manufacturers.

The physical properties of butyl tape, like any other polymeric product, is a complex blend of ingredients (like MS already mentioned) and other attributes such as molecular weight and amount of branching in the molecule. As with any sealant, the key tradeoff is always cohesive strength vs. adhesive strength. By tradeoff I mean that you ALWAYS sacrifice one when you improve the other, so the specific application will determine the proper balance of properties.

You don't need much adhesion for objects that are bolted to the deck - you just want it to stretch like crazy and stick enough to maintain its seal without letting go. Any more stick is more than you need, and will result in you sacrificing some stretch and cohesion.

MS has tested a whole bunch of products to get the one that has just enough adhesion to hold, but will stretch like crazy (check his videos for an eye-opening demo), so when you pull on the lifeline and the stanchion is stressed, its baseplate will never lose its seal because the bedding will stretch without losing adhesion.

This balance of properties is different for marine applications than it is for anything else, so by buying his product you have the one that's best for its intended purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
...and is quite cheap...
"Cheap" and "marine" are rarely compatible, and in this case the cost of a roll is far less than the time and effort you put into using it. Butyl tape that is truly marine grade is one of the cheapest things you'll buy for your boat, and saving a few dollars with an inferior product is false economy.
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  #244  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
As one who previously tried a readily available alternative (which wasn't terrible, just a little too runny), I learned my lesson and am now happy to pay a few dollars extra to let Maine Sail be the guinea pig with close to 50 other manufacturers.

The physical properties of butyl tape, like any other polymeric product, is a complex blend of ingredients (like MS already mentioned) and other attributes such as molecular weight and amount of branching in the molecule. As with any sealant, the key tradeoff is always cohesive strength vs. adhesive strength. By tradeoff I mean that you ALWAYS sacrifice one when you improve the other, so the specific application will determine the proper balance of properties.

You don't need much adhesion for objects that are bolted to the deck - you just want it to stretch like crazy and stick enough to maintain its seal without letting go. Any more stick is more than you need, and will result in you sacrificing some stretch and cohesion.

MS has tested a whole bunch of products to get the one that has just enough adhesion to hold, but will stretch like crazy (check his videos for an eye-opening demo), so when you pull on the lifeline and the stanchion is stressed, its baseplate will never lose its seal because the bedding will stretch without losing adhesion.

This balance of properties is different for marine applications than it is for anything else, so by buying his product you have the one that's best for its intended purpose.

"Cheap" and "marine" are rarely compatible, and in this case the cost of a roll is far less than the time and effort you put into using it. Butyl tape that is truly marine grade is one of the cheapest things you'll buy for your boat, and saving a few dollars with an inferior product is false economy.
Good advice. Everyone will do well to completely ignore anything I have said on this subject.
Butyl tape is obviously far too complex for me to understand and furthermore because MS hasn't given the stamp approval to the tape I'm using it can't be good.

Cheers,
Neil.
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  #245  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
Good advice. Everyone will do well to completely ignore anything I have said on this subject.
Butyl tape is obviously far too complex for me to understand and furthermore because MS hasn't given the stamp approval to the tape I'm using it can't be good.

Cheers,
Neil.
Neil,

Most advice can be good advice. Perhaps someday someone will have a deck leak in a far away place and remember your post. They could certainly use some self-amalgamating tape in a pinch. While it might not last long term it may just get them to the next port without that annoying drip right over their berth...
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  #246  
Old 03-07-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Neil,

Most advice can be good advice. Perhaps someday someone will have a deck leak in a far away place and remember your post. They could certainly use some self-amalgamating tape in a pinch. While it might not last long term it may just get them to the next port without that annoying drip right over their berth...
Thanks for your moderating post MS, I do realise that you are the guru and pioneer regarding butyl tape for sealing fittings and I thank you for that.
I do however get annoyed at people (not you) who give lectures on forums when someone has merely posted a personal anecdote which doesn't include advice to others nor implore others to follow suit.
I prefer to assume fellow forum members are intelligent and are able to make up their own minds about what is best for them and their situation, unlike the lecturers who assume everyone is else stupid.
/end rant!
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  #247  
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

Well you can call my post a lecture, and I can call your post a rant, and it's all good. We all post our experiences, and my experience is that MS sells a good product.

There are times people may need a quick repair and don't have time for mail order, so your suggestion may help guide them to a solution that fits their limitations. But the governing limitation in this case should be time, not money. That's my advice, and it's worth what you paid for it.

I'm not sure why you're so offended by my post. I said that I did essentially the same thing you did (look for a cheaper solution), but instead I learned to appreciate a superior product.

As someone who has spent my entire career doing polymer R&D for Fortune 50 companies in the paints/coating/ink/adhesives/sealants industry, I have some useful input and I will continue to make it. You are welcome to make yours too, and if we sometimes disagree, then the readers will be smart enough to decide which advice to follow.

Cheers!
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  #248  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

there is also a product out there used in the construction trade for lining window and door openings comes in wider rolls. I've used this for sound dampening as well as sealing
for sound dampening I glue heavy aluminum foil over it to line the walls in my engine room
for sealing/gasket application I like it as it is one continuous sheet. again use you own judgement which product is best for your application
also a good primer for butyl is to paint a thin coat of contact cement (use the good exterior stuff not the water based or interior stuff)
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  #249  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

Kudos to Maine Sail !!!! Got my order of three rolls of butyl tape today ..... the kudos part comes in the shipping area. It costs a rediculous amount of money ($40) to ship a small box to Canada. He managed to squish the three rolls into a DVD sized box (perfect fit) and get it to me at almost half the amount for shipping!

THANKS !!!
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  #250  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

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Originally Posted by white74 View Post
also a good primer for butyl is to paint a thin coat of contact cement (use the good exterior stuff not the water based or interior stuff)
I own a CS27, smaller sister to Maine Sail's CS36T. Both boats, as well as all other CS boats were built with all through bolted deck hardware bedded with good quality butyl. The hull'deck joint was butyl bedded as well. All original deck hardware on my boat is still leak free - the issues were items installed by previous owners using silicone or other sealants. On any item I have removed, like the forward hatch I replaced, the original (35 year old!) butyl was still doing its job. The adjacent balsa was bone dry and the hatch was hard to remove.

If it needs a primer it is not good butyl.
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