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  #241  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

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Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
In that case you're obviously not an electrician :-)
Try googling self-amalgamating tape, which is butyl tape we use in the electrical industry to re-insulate stuff. PVC electrical tape is what you are thinking of.
This is of interest to me because I just starting purchasing this stuff at home and at work. My understanding is consistent with xymotic. Self-amalgamating tape (self fusing) is called EPR or Ethylene Propylene Rubber which has no relation to butyl from what I can tell.

See 3M :
Self Amalgamating Tape : 3M UK & Ireland
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  #242  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf38 View Post
This is of interest to me because I just starting purchasing this stuff at home and at work. My understanding is consistent with xymotic. Self-amalgamating tape (self fusing) is called EPR or Ethylene Propylene Rubber which has no relation to butyl from what I can tell.

See 3M :
Self Amalgamating Tape : 3M UK & Ireland
Try googling 'butyl self-amalgamating tape'.
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  #243  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

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Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
Try googling 'butyl self-amalgamating tape'.

There are literally hundreds of products out there that use the term "butyl" in their description. Not all formulations of butyl, of which there are literally tons, are suitable for this application. Companies add fillers, solvents and other ingredients to get the formulation they want at the price they desire.

Most "butyl" self-amalgamating tapes are a mixture of butyl rubber and other rubber products such as EPM. If it has worked okay for you that is great, but having tested over 45 different manufacturers (not products but manufacturers) of "butyl" products I have found very, very few that are suitable.
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  #244  
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The first deck fittings I used the particular tape I'm using on were done nearly 2 years ago and so far no problems. I was worried that the tape might leave a stain behind but that doesn't seem to be a problem either.
I guess the properties that make the tape good for electrical use in that the tape is likely to be exposed to the weather and must keep water out, also make it good for sealing deck fittings.

Here is a description of the particular type of tape I'm using...



NITTO no. 15 self-fusing butyl tape

Nitto no. 15 is a self-fusing butyl-based tape that does not require a liner, thereby reducing the time required to apply the tape during assembly. The tape has extremely good electrical properties, superior weatherability and resistance to water. Established areas of application include: corrosion protection of wires and cables on through connections and branch couplings, insulation of high-voltage cables, sealing cable heads, repairing cable sheaths, corrosion protection of pipes, pipe connections and installations, as filler material to compensate for unevenness.

-55°C to +105°C
Excellent workability due to linerless system
Exceptional electrical properties
Extremely resistant to moisture, water and chemicals
Superior weatherability and ozone resistance
Self-amalgamates within 12 hours when stretched at 100 - 150%
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
The first deck fittings I used the particular tape I'm using on were done nearly 2 years ago and so far no problems. I was worried that the tape might leave a stain behind but that doesn't seem to be a problem either.
I guess the properties that make the tape good for electrical use in that the tape is likely to be exposed to the weather and must keep water out, also make it good for sealing deck fittings.

Here is a description of the particular type of tape I'm using...



NITTO no. 15 self-fusing butyl tape

Nitto no. 15 is a self-fusing butyl-based tape that does not require a liner, thereby reducing the time required to apply the tape during assembly. The tape has extremely good electrical properties, superior weatherability and resistance to water. Established areas of application include: corrosion protection of wires and cables on through connections and branch couplings, insulation of high-voltage cables, sealing cable heads, repairing cable sheaths, corrosion protection of pipes, pipe connections and installations, as filler material to compensate for unevenness.

-55°C to +105°C
Excellent workability due to linerless system
Exceptional electrical properties
Extremely resistant to moisture, water and chemicals
Superior weatherability and ozone resistance
Self-amalgamates within 12 hours when stretched at 100 - 150%
There is really no such thing as a "butyl tape" that does not require a "liner" or waxed paper backing on the roll. That tape is definitely a mix of butyl and other products. Real butyl will stick to itself just by looking at it and there is no way to make it "linerless"....

I suspect your tape is working by compression, which can't be underestimated... Still if I were going to do all that labor I'd personally want to choose a butyl tape intended for marine applications.
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  #246  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
There is really no such thing as a "butyl tape" that does not require a "liner" or waxed paper backing on the roll. That tape is definitely a mix of butyl and other products. Real butyl will stick to itself just by looking at it and there is no way to make it "linerless"....

I suspect your tape is working by compression, which can't be underestimated... Still if I were going to do all that labor I'd personally want to choose a butyl tape intended for marine applications.
I can't disagree, but I'm happy to be the guinea pig for a solution that is readily available (I thought I'd give it a go because I couldn't find thicker butyl tape) and is quite cheap. If others give it a go they should bear in mind that its not specifically for marine use.
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

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Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
I can't disagree, but I'm happy to be the guinea pig for a solution that is readily available...
As one who previously tried a readily available alternative (which wasn't terrible, just a little too runny), I learned my lesson and am now happy to pay a few dollars extra to let Maine Sail be the guinea pig with close to 50 other manufacturers.

The physical properties of butyl tape, like any other polymeric product, is a complex blend of ingredients (like MS already mentioned) and other attributes such as molecular weight and amount of branching in the molecule. As with any sealant, the key tradeoff is always cohesive strength vs. adhesive strength. By tradeoff I mean that you ALWAYS sacrifice one when you improve the other, so the specific application will determine the proper balance of properties.

You don't need much adhesion for objects that are bolted to the deck - you just want it to stretch like crazy and stick enough to maintain its seal without letting go. Any more stick is more than you need, and will result in you sacrificing some stretch and cohesion.

MS has tested a whole bunch of products to get the one that has just enough adhesion to hold, but will stretch like crazy (check his videos for an eye-opening demo), so when you pull on the lifeline and the stanchion is stressed, its baseplate will never lose its seal because the bedding will stretch without losing adhesion.

This balance of properties is different for marine applications than it is for anything else, so by buying his product you have the one that's best for its intended purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
...and is quite cheap...
"Cheap" and "marine" are rarely compatible, and in this case the cost of a roll is far less than the time and effort you put into using it. Butyl tape that is truly marine grade is one of the cheapest things you'll buy for your boat, and saving a few dollars with an inferior product is false economy.
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  #248  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
As one who previously tried a readily available alternative (which wasn't terrible, just a little too runny), I learned my lesson and am now happy to pay a few dollars extra to let Maine Sail be the guinea pig with close to 50 other manufacturers.

The physical properties of butyl tape, like any other polymeric product, is a complex blend of ingredients (like MS already mentioned) and other attributes such as molecular weight and amount of branching in the molecule. As with any sealant, the key tradeoff is always cohesive strength vs. adhesive strength. By tradeoff I mean that you ALWAYS sacrifice one when you improve the other, so the specific application will determine the proper balance of properties.

You don't need much adhesion for objects that are bolted to the deck - you just want it to stretch like crazy and stick enough to maintain its seal without letting go. Any more stick is more than you need, and will result in you sacrificing some stretch and cohesion.

MS has tested a whole bunch of products to get the one that has just enough adhesion to hold, but will stretch like crazy (check his videos for an eye-opening demo), so when you pull on the lifeline and the stanchion is stressed, its baseplate will never lose its seal because the bedding will stretch without losing adhesion.

This balance of properties is different for marine applications than it is for anything else, so by buying his product you have the one that's best for its intended purpose.

"Cheap" and "marine" are rarely compatible, and in this case the cost of a roll is far less than the time and effort you put into using it. Butyl tape that is truly marine grade is one of the cheapest things you'll buy for your boat, and saving a few dollars with an inferior product is false economy.
Good advice. Everyone will do well to completely ignore anything I have said on this subject.
Butyl tape is obviously far too complex for me to understand and furthermore because MS hasn't given the stamp approval to the tape I'm using it can't be good.

Cheers,
Neil.
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Re: Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape

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Originally Posted by Tymadman View Post
Good advice. Everyone will do well to completely ignore anything I have said on this subject.
Butyl tape is obviously far too complex for me to understand and furthermore because MS hasn't given the stamp approval to the tape I'm using it can't be good.

Cheers,
Neil.
Neil,

Most advice can be good advice. Perhaps someday someone will have a deck leak in a far away place and remember your post. They could certainly use some self-amalgamating tape in a pinch. While it might not last long term it may just get them to the next port without that annoying drip right over their berth...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Neil,

Most advice can be good advice. Perhaps someday someone will have a deck leak in a far away place and remember your post. They could certainly use some self-amalgamating tape in a pinch. While it might not last long term it may just get them to the next port without that annoying drip right over their berth...
Thanks for your moderating post MS, I do realise that you are the guru and pioneer regarding butyl tape for sealing fittings and I thank you for that.
I do however get annoyed at people (not you) who give lectures on forums when someone has merely posted a personal anecdote which doesn't include advice to others nor implore others to follow suit.
I prefer to assume fellow forum members are intelligent and are able to make up their own minds about what is best for them and their situation, unlike the lecturers who assume everyone is else stupid.
/end rant!
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