jib furler/reefer and halyard

MtHopeBay · #1 04-20-2010

I don't think I've asked about this here but I've had other questions about my rigging and my furler/reefer. Take a look at this picture of the top of my mast:
http://home.comcast.net/~mablackburn/masthead1.JPG
This was early in the season before I took down the halyard in the block above the stay/furler. There were lots of lines hanging on the mast and I had little idea what they were for. I found out later.

That leaves the halyard on the block that's attached to the same strap as the stay. Bad place for the jib halyard. It was always wrapping around the furler. It finally rubbed thin and parted near the end of the summer.

Is the block above the stay the better place for the jib halyard? I can't find pictures of fractional rigs with furlers to see the placement but the masthead rigs I see have the block below/behind the stay because the have to. I plan to move the block that's attached to the stay strap to the top for the spinnaker halyard.
Mike

Gene T · #2 04-20-2010

A block below the stay would be best. The idea is to create enough of an angle to prevent halyard wrap but not so much as to distort the fore-stay.

It looks like they just used something close to mount the block.

Gene

sailingfool · #3 04-20-2010

The jib halyard block must be below the forestay. As GT says above, it must be sufficiently below so the halyard pulls the furler swivel at an angle. you should see if you can get a manual for your system, it'll identify what the ideal angle is, probably something like 10-15 degrees. If you use a smaller sail, it needs a lead on the top fo the swivel comes to the same ehight, producing the same angle.

sailingdog · #4 04-20-2010

The block above the forestay is for a spinnaker. The block at the tang is for the jib, but this boat was probably fitted with hank on sails when it was originally commissioned and whoever installed the furler failed to install a halyard restrainer or relocate the block for the halyard. Without a halyard restrainer or relocating it to a few inches below the tang, it pretty much guarantees a halyard wrap.

I'd point out that you'll really want to inspect the forestay to see if it has been damaged by a halyard wrap, as that is very likely. You'll also want to relocate the jib halyard or add the halyard restrainer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtHopeBay

I don't think I've asked about this here but I've had other questions about my rigging and my furler/reefer. Take a look at this picture of the top of my mast:
http://home.comcast.net/~mablackburn/masthead1.JPG
This was early in the season before I took down the halyard in the block above the stay/furler. There were lots of lines hanging on the mast and I had little idea what they were for. I found out later.

That leaves the halyard on the block that's attached to the same strap as the stay. Bad place for the jib halyard. It was always wrapping around the furler. It finally rubbed thin and parted near the end of the summer.

Is the block above the stay the better place for the jib halyard? I can't find pictures of fractional rigs with furlers to see the placement but the masthead rigs I see have the block below/behind the stay because the have to. I plan to move the block that's attached to the stay strap to the top for the spinnaker halyard.
Mike

MtHopeBay · #5 04-21-2010

It irks me that I can't find a picture of an installation on a fractional rig. All the instruction manuals show masthead rigs and the halyard block has to be below/behind the foil because there is no "above". On a fractional rig it looks like it should work hanging it from above. Does anyone see a problem that I don't? The swiveling head looks like it would be free and clear.

The forestay has been twisted. I'm planning to replace it. More fun.
Mike

sailingdog · #6 04-21-2010

The jib halyard on a fractional rig has to be from below... think about it... when the sail is deployed, where is the head of the sail—below the forestay... If you have the sheave or block above the forestay, especially with hanked on sails, since the halyard is forced to cross the forestay and will chafe on it. With a roller furling setup, you might be able to get away with it, provided you had the halyard exit high enough to prevent halyard wraps.

However, that is probably easier to do with the block or sheave exit below the forestay, cause of the geometry of the setup. To get the same angle of clearance between the forestay and the halyard, you need to be much greater distance above the forestay tang attachment point, than you would have to be below the forestay attachment point. See attached drawing. The upper halyard is only about 17˚ from the forestay, compared to 20˚ for the lower halyard. Halyards are cyan, forestay is magenta, mast is black.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtHopeBay

It irks me that I can't find a picture of an installation on a fractional rig. All the instruction manuals show masthead rigs and the halyard block has to be below/behind the foil because there is no "above". On a fractional rig it looks like it should work hanging it from above. Does anyone see a problem that I don't? The swiveling head looks like it would be free and clear.

The forestay has been twisted. I'm planning to replace it. More fun.
Mike

MtHopeBay · #7 04-21-2010

thanks SD for the thoughtful reply. I wish I could draw a picture for you to see my thinking. The reason I think mounting the halyard block above the stay is that all the moving parts will then be below it. The halyard attaches to the top of the swivel (furler swivel, not swivel shackle) which stays stationary. The bottom half of the swivel has the head of the sail attached at the bottom and everything from there down is free to rotate around the stay. The halyard is above it. The only issue I see is needing some kind of stop to make sure the swivel doesn't go too high and jam into the stay strap.
Mike

sailingdog · #8 04-21-2010

Yes, I am aware of how the roller furling top swivel works... but to get the recommended clearance angle with the forestay, you'd have to run the halyard up the mast quite a bit more, as the drawing I posted shows... and that can have all sorts of problems of its own.

For instance, having the jib halyard above the forestay increases weight aloft slightly. It also prevents you from using the halyard as easily for doing things like an MOB recovery, since it would chafe against the forestay half the time. It is far more likely to chafe when the halyards are stowed with the sails off the boat. It might interfere with a spinnaker halyard, etc....

I'd point out that the swivel can only rise as far as the sail will let it...since the drum is fastened to the bottom of the forestay and the sail is fastened to the drum. If your sail is cut so long that hitting the forestay tang at the mast is an issue, then you really should have the sail re-cut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtHopeBay

thanks SD for the thoughtful reply. I wish I could draw a picture for you to see my thinking. The reason I think mounting the halyard block above the stay is that all the moving parts will then be below it. The halyard attaches to the top of the swivel (furler swivel, not swivel shackle) which stays stationary. The bottom half of the swivel has the head of the sail attached at the bottom and everything from there down is free to rotate around the stay. The halyard is above it. The only issue I see is needing some kind of stop to make sure the swivel doesn't go too high and jam into the stay strap.
Mike

MtHopeBay · #9 04-21-2010

Thanks again, SD. Don't let it go to your head but I think your replies have really helped me clarify what I need to do. The concerns you mention about having the halyard mounted above the stay aren't really concerns at all. I'm going to rig it this way and if I run into trouble I can take into the yard and redo.

I think the whole need for the 8 to 10 degree angle for the halyard to the stay is only applicable if the block is below/behind the stay/foil to prevent the possibility of wrap. If the block is above, the halyard is out of the way completely so not an issue.
thanks again,
Mike

Gene T · #10 04-21-2010

I think you are misunderstanding how this works. The angle between halyard and stay is to prevent the idler from turning. The foil turns inside the idler as the sail furls. Unless you have an angle to hold the idler in place it will turn and the halyard will wrap around the stay.