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Old 06-02-2010
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Synthetic Rigging

Hi Forum
My apologies if I'm repeating another thread but I haven't been able to find one. I need to replace all the standing rigging and running on my Folkboat. I've been researching using Dynex Dux rather than wire and it looks the business to me. Lighter, stronger, neater, you can do most of it yourself, no more stainless steel shroud fittings to corrode and fail, and no more brass hanks to take skin off the knuckles. It looked like a no brainer to me. The only negative I could think of would be re-sale value. If I were to sell the yacht, perhaps buyers might shy away from such exotic rigging until it became more fashionable.

Anyway, I chat today with two of the larger and well respected riggers in my home port and both advised against it strongly.

The first guy advised against it because of chafe and UV degradation. I didn't argue with him because he is the rigger and I'm just the googler (my Doctor hates me). But the literature I've read is contrary to this. From what I've read, UV protection is 5 years, but its only 5 years simply because this stuff hasn't been about for any longer than 5 years, so its possible UV protection is a lot longer than 5 years. I'm not sure about the chaffe issue but they use this stuff on fishing trawlers.

The second rigger advised against it because of creep. He said you just have to keep tightening your shrouds all the time. I asked him if it doesn't stabalize after a period and he said no, the creep just keeps happening and doesn't stop. This surprised me.

Õ'm wondering if the concerns of the two riggers are simply because they are not "early adopters" (to use marketing parlance) or if their concerns are legitimate? I'd be interested in feedback from folk regarding the amount of creep they've experienced after installing Dynex Dux standing rigging.
Kind Regards
Claverton
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Old 06-02-2010
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I have been playing around with the same idea of using Dynex Dux for my standing rigging. I contacted Colligo Marine and have a quote from them for a complete replacement and am postponing doing this changeover for a couple of reasons (not related to Dynex). I did get 5mm and 6mm dyneema single core and replaced my lifelines - the splices were easy and I used 1mm dyneema for the lashings. After a couple of days I had to re-tighten the lifelines since there was some creep (all of it constructional) but no more since then. The Colligo website links to a number of articles regarding sizing and creep as well as UV-resistance.
Dynex Dux is the name used in the USA for the Hampidjan product, the German ropemaker LIROS also has an equivalent product called XTR Pro which is also annealed and prestretched, I have a 12mm stretch of it to replace my removable inner forestay and it is significantly stiffer than the normal dyneema rope.
Both of us are in a similar situation but neither my Jeanneau nor your Folkeboot are racers that would really benefit from weight savings up top, but I'm fairly confident about these lighter manmade fibers and have no qualms about becoming an early adopter. What interests me apart from the weight savings is that I can now splice and lash any standing rigging myself with no tools apart from a fid, a knife and a cutting board. 80m of 6mm line plus 30m of 12mm line plus 30m of 5mm all fit into a Peli 1300 case (24x16x18cm) and actually weighed less than the case itself!

http://www.colligomarine.com/docs/ne...ers/08-feb.pdf
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Last edited by Zanshin; 06-02-2010 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 06-02-2010
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Don't you guys worry about long term reliability? What about, for instance, UV degradation? What about mechanical damage (like cuts)...

Does this stuff you mention have any advantages over steel wire other than weight savings and ease of DIY?
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The UV degradation studies done to date show that the outer layer is affected but that tensile strength is not. The SK75 covering also reduces UV impact and it seems that the degradation is similar to oxidation on aluminum - it affects the outside but does not penetrate.
When ordered in bulk for standing rigging and taking into account that multiple expensive steel fittings are no longer required, the costs are about the same as for wire rigging. Thus, the only advantages I see are weight savings plus being able to DIY and being able to carry a lot of spares in little space and with little weight.
The annealed Dyneema such as Dux and XTR Pro is really quite tough to nick and cut, I was using a kitchen knife whose edge was enough to give me a cut but which wasn't sharp enough to cut 5mm dyneema without a lot of sawing back and forth. These ropes are being used by commercial fishing fleets in the North Sea for their nets and trawls and to replace heavy steel hawsers and lines, plus the forestry industry has also switched to using heavy ropes for hauling trees - that is recommendation enough for me regarding the material's toughness and ability to withstand heavy-duty use.

Dyneema doesn't soak up water and doesn't rust. I worry a bit about abrasion when salt water dries and salt srystals form inside the rope, but standing rigging doesn't move or bend much so that isn't a significant negative for me.
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If I had dollar for everytime this happened I would probably be a rich man. Most riggers know alot about how to rig a boat but not much about material science, since it is not their area of expertise. A big part of my job has been to educate the riggers on the materail properties of Dynex Dux or Dyneema, in general.
Dynex Dux is Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene, which does, as most materials do (even steel), creep. If you understand this property it is easy to design around. See the creep charts on our website at Dynex Dux | Colligo Synthetic Systems | Colligo Marine. as you will see from the charts it is very easy to size this line so as you don't have any creep issues. We generally size the line for 0.1 inches of creep per year, 1 inch in 10 years. For creep we use the pretension that the standing rigging is set to as the dynamic loads are not there for long enough time to induce creep.
For sailboat applications, Dux really has 2 limiting factors, creep and stretch. This is how we successfully size it for standing rigging. If sized this way, it is genarally 2-5 itmes stronger than the steel you replace and only slightly larger iin diameter than the steel wire was, but 1/4 to 1/5 the wieght of the steel. See the stretch information on the same page on our site.
In general, use 5 mm dux to replace 3/16 inch (4.8mm) wire, 7 mm dux for 1/4 (6.4mm) wire, etc.
We have successfully rigged several boats with short travel turnbuckles that wouldn't work if there were creep problems, although most people choose to use lashings for their simplicity.
Dynex Dux is a great product for standing rigging. Its greatest benefit is its low cost and it's do it yourself capabilities.

John Franta, Colligo Marine


Quote:
Originally Posted by claverton View Post
Hi Forum
My apologies if I'm repeating another thread but I haven't been able to find one. I need to replace all the standing rigging and running on my Folkboat. I've been researching using Dynex Dux rather than wire and it looks the business to me. Lighter, stronger, neater, you can do most of it yourself, no more stainless steel shroud fittings to corrode and fail, and no more brass hanks to take skin off the knuckles. It looked like a no brainer to me. The only negative I could think of would be re-sale value. If I were to sell the yacht, perhaps buyers might shy away from such exotic rigging until it became more fashionable.

Anyway, I chat today with two of the larger and well respected riggers in my home port and both advised against it strongly.

The first guy advised against it because of chafe and UV degradation. I didn't argue with him because he is the rigger and I'm just the googler (my Doctor hates me). But the literature I've read is contrary to this. From what I've read, UV protection is 5 years, but its only 5 years simply because this stuff hasn't been about for any longer than 5 years, so its possible UV protection is a lot longer than 5 years. I'm not sure about the chaffe issue but they use this stuff on fishing trawlers.

The second rigger advised against it because of creep. He said you just have to keep tightening your shrouds all the time. I asked him if it doesn't stabalize after a period and he said no, the creep just keeps happening and doesn't stop. This surprised me.

Õ'm wondering if the concerns of the two riggers are simply because they are not "early adopters" (to use marketing parlance) or if their concerns are legitimate? I'd be interested in feedback from folk regarding the amount of creep they've experienced after installing Dynex Dux standing rigging.
Kind Regards
Claverton
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Call me crazy BUT the cost of the fittings is substaintal



And everything i have seen done requires a lot of mods to things like spreaders
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unusual?

Hi Tommays
Re cost of fittings, that photo you have of two stays going into a spreader and coming out the other end as three stays is pretty complex rigging scenario is it not? Can you put up the photo of the same thing happening with wire please?
Regards Claverton
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Well

It looks like good stuff and the fittings look great also BUT if you do the math on cost you need for example (3) 65 dollar fittings and the line at 2 to 3 dollars a foot

Go to there sight and watch the 3 splicing videos and pay careful attention to the last one were your cautioned that a less than perfect tapering job on the splice can cause a stress riser resulting in failure

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Question Keeping our "Dux" in a row

Interesting discussion.
The Ericson gang has a thread on this topic also, segueing off the thread on re-rigging which started out focused more on costs to re-rig with wire.
Replacing Standing Rig -- Costs? - EY.o Information Exchange

I am not ready to change over to "Dynex dux" at this time, but when my "calendar timer" chimes for my present rig in about 2022, this may even be the preferred method by then!

(And given my finances, I will probably still own the same boat, too.)

Changes in the sailing world, niche market that we are, seem to happen rather slowly.

L
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Hey Tommays
I'm trying to work out whether to go wire or synthetic on my boat and I don't get your point re tapering the splice. You said if the tapering on the splice is not done correctly it won't work. Does that mean if it is done correctly it will work?
Regards Claverton
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