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Old 06-24-2010
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central heating systems and installation

If I go through with my boat purchase for liveaboard (which hopefully I will within the next month), I'll need heat. I already posted a thread that convinced me I need central heat, but now I need to figure out what type and where to get it installed. The three options I'm aware of are Espar, Webasto, and ITR Hurricane. Can anyone give pros/cons of these for a 36' boat? I'm thinking fuel use, electric use, initial cost/installation, and maintenance cost/difficulty are the differentiators... I know nearly nothing about these systems beyond the 3 sentences that show up on the distributors websites -- can anyone give pros/cons of each, or better yet comparisons?.

The guy my broker recommends to install them does only Espar and speaks very highly of them. He estimated about $6k to install. Would I be better off with a different system or a different installer? I'm located in Boston MA, so if anyone can recommend a good local installer, that would be great. Thanks.

Last edited by rmeador; 06-24-2010 at 01:07 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-24-2010
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I would look seriously at Hydronic heat...small diesel fired boiler unit that pumps hot water throughout the boat to small radiators, that have fans move that heated air through the boat for liveaboard.

Our reverse cycle is good to about 45 degrees outside air...that is with 28K BTU in two systems. Worse with colder water...

Slipmate has espar and it is good, but for local area heating only, dickinson similar. Espar and webasto are truck heaters, decent but not the best for a 36' or multi cabin...

let us know what you choose and why...
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Old 06-24-2010
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I like the idea of hydronic heat (and I think the ITR Hurricane might be one... can anyone verify that?), but I worry that it won't do enough to combat moisture. A forced-air system that draws air from outside will be bringing in dry air, which I think will keep the boat dryer. Perhaps someone has an opinion on this? Do the espar and/or webasto systems use outside air intakes?
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Old 06-28-2010
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So I finally got a call back from the guy I've been talking to (Ed Hamilton at Ocean Options in RI). He thinks that an Espar Airtronics D5 is the right heater for a Pearson 36 (the boat I've been looking at). He said that it does not draw in outside air for heating, merely recuriculating what's already in there... obviously this gives greater efficiency, but how does it remove moisture? Ed says that just the act of heating it removes the moisture, but I find that a little hard to believe. He estimated $6500 to install it. Any thoughts on what he said, or recommendations for other products/installers that might be cheaper?
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Old 06-28-2010
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Heating air and recirculating it does not remove moisture but warm air holds more moisture than cool air.
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Old 06-28-2010
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Heating air and recirculating it does not remove moisture but warm air holds more moisture than cool air.
It does if you exhaust the heated air at some point...
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Old 06-28-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmeador View Post
So I finally got a call back from the guy I've been talking to (Ed Hamilton at Ocean Options in RI). He thinks that an Espar Airtronics D5 is the right heater for a Pearson 36 (the boat I've been looking at). He said that it does not draw in outside air for heating, merely recuriculating what's already in there
I've had serious issues with Ocean Options in Annapolis, so Ed's answer to you from Ocean Options in RI is consistent with my experience here.

Let's back up and start from scratch.

Webasto and Espar are both European companies that have products based on truck and bus heaters. Both make forced air and hydronic systems. Hydronic systems by their nature entirely recirculate inside air. Pros: they can be plumbed to heat domestic hot water; Cons: higher power consumption for circulating pumps and radiator blowers. Forced air systems only have one blower. Pros: warm up the boat real fast; Cons: may be more difficult to install the 3" or 4" vent than 2 x 1" water hose and can't help with hot water.

Both run great on diesel fuel in the EU. In the US our diesel is dirtier and can create issues, moreso with Webasto than Espar. For both, running a gallon of kerosene through once a month in season will help tremendously. I spent three years fighting with maintenance and repair on a factory-installed Webasto before I gave up and replaced it (for half what I sank into the Webasto for repair) with an Espar.

If you just want to live aboard, the water heating capacity of a hydronic system has great value. If you sail your boat a lot year round and count amp-hours then a forced air system makes more sense.

A year-and-a-half into my Espar D5 and I'm thrilled.

For the forced-air models from both Webasto and Espar (returning to Ocean Options not being a good source of information) you can choose where you draw circulating air as an installation option. On my boat I draw air from outside the boat, heat it, and blow it into the boat. Normal boat ventilation provides exhaust from overpressure. One could easily choose to draw air from inside the boat. Combustion air can be drawn from either inside the boat, the engine space (which has some pre-heating benefit), or outside. Exhaust is the most critical since back-pressure cannot be too high or the burner will carbonize. Most installations run directly outboard to just below the toe-rail or (on aft-cabin boats) out the transom. Regardless you have to provide adequate drainage for condensate in the exhaust system.

For a from-scratch installation on a 36' boat you should be able to get an Espar D5 for2k - 2.5k plus installation labor. You really need someone who knows what they are doing. In my personal opinion and based on my personal experience with Ocean Options in Annapolis I would not trust any of their facilities to wash the windshield of my car. You may have different experience and make different choices. So be it.

I clearly have some opinions on this subject, but I do have personal experience (and expertise as it happens) to back it up. Feel free to contact me if you care to discuss heating in more detail.

While you are at it, I highly recommend Roger McAfee's book "The Warm Dry Boat" as a good general resource.

All that said, diesel heat of whatever form is the way to go for living aboard in colder climes. I spent late-winter and early-spring in Sweden, several winters in the Chesapeake, and done a number of offshore passages in winter with diesel heat. Beats the heck out of being cold. Even cold weather watches are okay when you know it will be warm below.

sail fast and eat well, dave
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Last edited by SVAuspicious; 06-28-2010 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010
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I am pleased with my Espar

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmeador View Post
So I finally got a call back from the guy I've been talking to (Ed Hamilton at Ocean Options in RI). He thinks that an Espar Airtronics D5 is the right heater for a Pearson 36 (the boat I've been looking at). He said that it does not draw in outside air for heating, merely recuriculating what's already in there... obviously this gives greater efficiency, but how does it remove moisture? Ed says that just the act of heating it removes the moisture, but I find that a little hard to believe. He estimated $6500 to install it. Any thoughts on what he said, or recommendations for other products/installers that might be cheaper?
I had an Espar D8 installed on my Bristol 45.5 by Ocean Options in RI. They did an excellent job but are not cheap.

PLUSES -We lived onboard for two winters in NYC with the Espar and were very pleased - we were much more comfortable than our neighbours who used electric heat. Ed Hamilton planned the install and they were able to place five outlets in the boat (fwd and aft cabins, two heads and main cabin). The entire boat was toasty although the second year we closed off the fwd cabin and fwd head vents, closed a couple of doors to reduce fuel use. The unit work flawlessly for the two years.

MINUSES - electric and diesel consumption are considerable (their specs are pretty accurate) but I suspect that that is true of all of these units. Air hoses are quite large so take up quite a bit of room in lockers - a good thing is that these lockers are kept quite warm and dry.

The Ocean Options people were very good (as they should be) at knowing where to lead the piping - I would not have thought it possible to get heat into the forward part of the boat in the way they did it. I have a friend with a Bristol 47.7 (basically the same boat) and he installed an Espar and only has three outlets (in cabins, not heads) because he did not choose the best location for the unit and piping. Install cost may be worth it.
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Old 06-28-2010
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SVAuspicious, it looks like your last line was intended to say something about hydronic heat that got cut off. I appreciate your opinion on Ocean Options and I'd also like to know whatever you started to say.

killarney_sailor, what sort of fuel consumption were you seeing? I trust the specs, but the specs don't tell me how much time the unit spends in the different operating modes in "real" conditions. If it used 100 gallons and hour but only ran for 20 seconds a day, that would still be a good deal, if you see what I'm driving at. I'd like to know your real-world experience, though I assume the D8 is significantly larger than the D5, right?
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Old 09-06-2011
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Seriously? You join a community and the first thing you do is pull up a thread that is over a year old and use it as a pretext to spam us?

Easiest thing to do is to use the "report post button". It looks like this:

All mods and admins will get a copy of your reported post and they can then ban the spammer and delete the post..
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