Need Expert Advice 02

[udoma]

Hello everybody,

I my hunt for finding a nice classic, I decided not to take the Koster discussed in the other thread started by me.
I did inspect on another one and I am curious about what the experts could recommend me to look for with the inspection.

The boat:

Linjekrysare, build in 1949, Varnished Oregon Pine, 29 feet, keel below the waterline: 1.2 meters.

Also curious to hear if people know this boat, because i am not able to find any information on the internet or sailguide.com

To me, it looks very similar as: a Nordic Krysare.
see here the link:

Nordisk Kryssare 5½

any idea?


Here are the images from the Linjekrysare:

Jinjekrysare nr.7

The owner is selling purely because of his age.
He had the boat in his ownership since 1977

The boat is maintained in the classic way: not using modern techniques and varnished like Polyurethane, as far as I could understand.
The boat was held during the winter not under just a cover, but a boat / tent house, so the owner could work during autumn, winter (when not too cold) and spring.

Obviously he stayed on top of it and his estimate was that he spends around 30 - 40 hours outside the sailing season on maintenance.

During the years he had the odd leak thought the deck, but again, solved issue's as soon as he could. Therefore I spotted some wood damage / dis-colouring, but never in the hull. The biggest damage was in the mahogany plywood partition between the front and back side of the cabin (see images). According to the owner this happened 15 years ago and only the outside layer of the plywood is bubbling, but the inside is not rot, still hard. The hull looked very clean inside. The seems between the plans above the waterline seem to close completely after a week of sailing and therefore the hull will be completely closed.
The deck was not made out of plywood, but solid wooden slats, placed right next to each other, and I guess the deck and cabin roof is still covered in the old fashioned way with canvas.

The inboard engine was taken out after (I guess) was too expensive to repair, but it is still possible to put in a 2nd hand or new one + the fuel tank is still in the boat. For now the owner was using an outboard engine for a couple of years.

The boat comes with the outboard engine, winter storage boat tent and cradle, 9 year old main sail and 7 year old furlex roll genua.
Compas, Log (speed), but no depth meter or GPS. Wall electricity connection.

For a price which is probably very reasonable.

Any commends more than welcome.

Udo

[Hartley18]

Originally Posted by udoma

Here are the images from the Linjekrysare:

Jinjekrysare nr.7

The owner is selling purely because of his age.
He had the boat in his ownership since 1977

Udo, there's nothing obviously wrong with that boat either. Again, get a surveyor to have a look at her, haul her out and get a written report - just like the last one.


Another suggestion: Perhaps it is too expensive, but if you do really like the Tumlaren 'Zephyr', have you thought of buying it and having it shipped to you??

I know the owner quite well - he restores Tumlarens for a hobby. This boat was been restored by him last year and is only up for sale because he now has another one to work on (called 'Avian') which was apparently the first Tum to be brought to Australia.

Although they weren't out yesterday, Zephyr is being raced regularly in the Classics (not being neglected at all!) by a good friend of the owner, and is a very fast boat - beating Avian sometimes. There is nothing more to do on her. Unlike most Tums, she has two berths and a small galley down below - I can get more photos for you if you are serious.

Only a suggestion..

[udoma]

Originally Posted by Hartley18

Another suggestion: Perhaps it is too expensive, but if you do really like the Tumlaren 'Zephyr', have you thought of buying it and having it shipped to you??

Only a suggestion..

Hello Hartly,


I have to say, the person who restored it knows what he is doing. The choice of colour for the hull is just amazing! So extremely beautiful in all respects: design , lines, colour, There is a lot of the market, but rarely to find such an amazing beauty! I am sure, this will go way above my present budget. Have to be careful during the economical recession!

Still curious: In what kind of direction do one has to think in respect to price and shipping over the Europe? (But again, just curious, because for this year it will be above what I can afford)

Best regards,

Udo

[Jeff_H]

First of all, I am huge fan of the Tumlaren, but these were often constructed using a mix of galvanized steel, wrought iron and copper fastenings and knees. This makes maintenance and restoration a real nightmare.

The new boats that you have posted appear to be early 5.5 meter class boats (later 5.5's are open boats and do not have a cabin structure). These will be faster boats and in someways easier boats to sail in light to moderate winds, but are not as well rounded cruising designs as the first boat that you considered. These development classes like the 5.5's tended to be lightly framed and planked and were seen as almost being disposable since the rules and the science changed almost yearly. As a result, they are far more difficult and expensive to maintain relative to boats that began life as cruising boats or even as racer cruiser.

The other issue with these old meter classes is that they actually took pretty good sized crews to sail well in part due to the need for coordinated maneuvers paying the running backstays to keep the rig up while tacking or jibing the jib and mainsail. They were sailed with crews hung on the rail "Tooth and toenail" and while the can be sailed with smaller crews, it takes skill and caution to do so.

Jeff

[cormeum]

Looks pretty good udo. The toerail will probably need some attention in the next couple of years (remove metal cap and rebed). the bulkhead discoloration, if the leak has been fixed and the ply is solid, is cosmetic.

It looks to have a fixed backstay so there'll be less frantic activity when tacking/gybing.

Keep up with fixing the leaks as they occur and you should be fine.

I'll echo Hartley- get a survey. But this looks better than the other one.

[udoma]

Originally Posted by Jeff_H

First of all, I am huge fan of the Tumlaren, but these were often constructed using a mix of galvanized steel, wrought iron and copper fastenings and knees. This makes maintenance and restoration a real nightmare.

The new boats that you have posted appear to be early 5.5 meter class boats (later 5.5's are open boats and do not have a cabin structure). These will be faster boats and in someways easier boats to sail in light to moderate winds, but are not as well rounded cruising designs as the first boat that you considered. These development classes like the 5.5's tended to be lightly framed and planked and were seen as almost being disposable since the rules and the science changed almost yearly. As a result, they are far more difficult and expensive to maintain relative to boats that began life as cruising boats or even as racer cruiser.

The other issue with these old meter classes is that they actually took pretty good sized crews to sail well in part due to the need for coordinated maneuvers paying the running backstays to keep the rig up while tacking or jibing the jib and mainsail. They were sailed with crews hung on the rail "Tooth and toenail" and while the can be sailed with smaller crews, it takes skill and caution to do so.

Jeff

Jeff, it's really clear to my why you are the super moderator!

I realize more and more that buying and owning is something extremely different than renting, which I did, till I came in Sweden.

Actually I need a boat which I could single handed sail (after the needed update of spec, like roll fok and the like), since my family members do not have experience. I used to (nearly) always sail with people without experience.

It might well be that I have to look more into another direction, though, more expensive.

and to be honest, of course it needs to be a good sailor, but cruiser as well. From all what I have been able to see and find, in terms of design, sailing qualities, sea worthy-ness, comfort, space in-side, this might be a better option?

It's the Laurin Koster K25

LaurinKoster-K25-01

Just an idea.

I really love the design and still attracted to wood.

Udo

[cormeum]

I like 'em skinny so I'd prefer the one at the top of the thread. Sail both and see which you like better- after all, you have to live with your choice.

Based on the pics you posted, that particular boat (Jinjekrysare nr.7) looks vary adequately framed. I'd be leery about advice relating to construction to a class of wood boats- they were generally built one at a time and often vary significantly in construction details. That one looks hardly disposable after 60 years.

[udoma]

Originally Posted by cormeum

I like 'em skinny so I'd prefer the one at the top of the thread. Sail both and see which you like better- after all, you have to live with your choice.

Based on the pics you posted, that particular boat (Jinjekrysare nr.7) looks vary adequately framed. I'd be leery about advice relating to construction to a class of wood boats- they were generally built one at a time and often vary significantly in construction details. That one looks hardly disposable after 60 years.

True, the owner told me: the hull is 100% and goes another 60 years if properly maintained. He himself scraped the boat when he was 70! but then broke his pols and could not finish all (as you can see in the images)

The owner is really a true sailor, and when there was a leakage, he repaired it, but did not bother to replace or restore the dis-coloured wood inside the cabin.

I am not an expert, but the feeling was to see a unique and honest boat hiding nothing.

But OK, these are emotions.

jeff points out that it will not be an easy job the maintain the boat knowing what kind of materials might have been used. But of course, I could listen very carefully to the owner, write everything down the way how he maintained it. he also told me that between 30 - 50 hours outside the sailing season for regular maintenance should be OK. For € 4000 + complete boat tent house (not just cover) + winter cradle, main sail 9 years old and the furlex roll fok just 7 years + (the short sailing season in Sweden = means less use every year) and you can work out that this is a bargain if you love it.

But what concerns me is that this might not be the best boat for single handed sailing (family members having 0 experience)

I need a good fast sailor, not too heavy on the helm for cruising.

The Laurin Koster might be for that a better option?

Udo

[cormeum]

Well, Udo. I'm going by what I'm seeing- goodly sized framing, closely spaced and riveted to the planking (IMO the best way to fasten planks).My point is that opinions about a class are at best secondary to what you have right in front of you. This boat appears to be well built. this boat appears to have good frames etc. It really doesn't matter how other boats may or may not have been built as you're not looking to buy those.

Jeff is talking about a racing crew, If you're cruising you don't need that level of crewing or expertise to "make her go".

It appears that the present owner didn't have problems sailing her, but the real question is whether you're comfortable. It appears that she has a fixed backstay and having runners only would be a concern with an inexperienced crew.
But as a boat, there's nothing about this particular one that would ward me off.
Get a survey
Go for a good long sail and see if she'll handle the way you want.
If both are satisfactory, you're good.

IMO the Jinjekrysare will probably be a faster sail than the Lauren koster, but you really have to SAIL them both to compare. They'll be quite different.

[Jeff_H]

While I have great respect for my estemed colleague, Cormeum, and I have no idea how much time he has spent with early meter type yachts, but I respectfully I somewhat disagree with his take on this boat having spent a fair amount of time sailing boats of this type and era and restoring a 1949 folkboat, which was constructed in very similar manner.

My experience with these early meter types was both racing them but also sailing them casually. They really do require skill to sail in a breeze and to keep their rigs in one piece. But also they are quite tender and hard to keep on their feet. They are easily driven hulls which allows them to get by with smaller sail plans, but thier extreme long overhangs and ectremely short keel lengths make them very sensitive to balance and not at all easy to sail short-handed. These are very different animals than an offshore race boat of this same period such as Cormeum's S&S which were generally far more robustly constructed and forgiving.

With regards to the running backstays, the way 5.5 and 6 meters of this era were generally rigged the forestay hit the mast between half and two thrirds up the mast and they had parrelel spreaders (inline shrouds with no sweep and no forward or aft lowers). The upper spars were very light and fairly fragile and so, although they had fixed backstays that went to the masthead, the runners kept you from springing the mast forward when reaching and running, the running backstays were critical to preventing the mast from bowing forward, getting out of column and failing.

There obviously were heavier scantling versions of these early meter style yachts but these pictures appear to be of boats rigged as full blown racing versions.

When you talk about normal scantlings for a Scandinavian builyt cruising or racer cruising yacht of this era, the frames were generally square in section and a mixture with the steam bent frames and double sawn frames, each of which have their purpose. What I see in the interior shots of this boat was very typical of the era for full blown racing versions of the meter style, which means closely spaced, small section, steam bent frames with copper rivets, minimal if any sawn frames, planked down bilges, minimal floor timbers (transverse joiner frames to European brethren) and more signifincantly flat frames (i.e. frames that are wider than deeper). Flat frames were easier to construct, especially when there are tight turns of the bilge as you can see in the photos near the bilge and are much lighter, but they are more prone to splitting and cannot refastened in the usual manner. They are easier to replace, but need replacement more frequently.

That was fine for a boat whose useful life was seen as being well less than a decade. An yes with care, these old boats can be kept in good condition but it takes skill and/or money to do so, and my sense is that Udoma would be better served by something more robust and easier to sail and maintain.

I do think that the Koster K-25 is a very handsome boat and while probably not offering the kind of performance implied by the meter boats, should be easier to sail, more robust, easier to maintain, and would seemingly make more sense for a person with young children and a family without sailing experience.

Respectfully,
Jeff
Jeff