New Mainsail Considerations

[Sabreman]

We replaced our genoa last month with a dacron crosscut sail. It flies great and weatherhelm is much reduced due to a relatively flat cut.

The Admiral hasn't said "no" to a new main so I'm proceeding (in my world, no answer = yes). I'm seeking opinions for our new mainsail. Considerations:

1. We still have more weatherhelm that I'd like in 15kts. Mast tuning options are minimal, but I understand that a flatter main will help alleviate the problem.
2. We do 1-2 races a year, but I'd like better performance overall. Cross-cut or tri-radial? I'd like to stay away from laminates but NorDac Radian looks like an alternative for a dacron tri-radial. Opinion?
3. My current main, the original, is nearly roachless. I'd like to max the roach without interfering with the backstay. Opinions?
4. The PO had the existing main retrofitted with full battens to increase longevity. Should our new sail have a) 4 full battens, b) 2 full, 2 partial, or c) other combination?
5. Loose or shelf foot?
6. Anything else that I forgot to consider?

[sailingfool]

I wouldn't put any more tech into the main than you choose for the genoa, so you should just go cross-cut.

Increase the roach as much as you can, whcih probalby isn't much if any.

Definitely four full battens and a loose foot.

[RichH]

1. We still have more weatherhelm that I'd like in 15kts. Mast tuning options are minimal, but I understand that a flatter main will help alleviate the problem.
**** so also will having the having a sailmaker come to your boat and see if the POINT OF MAXIMUM draft is correct. .... if its an old sail most probably the boltrope rope (if it has one) has drastically 'shrunken' --> draft aft, 'baggy', too tight + 'hooking-to-weather' leech etc. which yields 'slow boat', cranky boat, boat that aggressively heels, etc. ..... and most possibly youre not giving proper main halyard tension to correctly set where the point of maxium draft should be on the 'old' sail. Next time out and as a trial, when on a hard beat and you perceive 'weather helm' ... crank on tension on the main halyard until your 'weather helm' disappears. A boat your size needs the main halyard (sail luff) , additionally stretched out by an 'additional' 4- 4.5 inches to get to the 'as designed' shape of the 'dacron' sail !!!! .... in sailmaker-speak is called '"removing the boltrope 'preload'". I claim that most 'weather helm' problems (on boats with boltroped dacron mainsails) is because the Msail isnt 'raised' sufficiently, ... not enough tension on the HALYARD.
Here's a link to a posting I did on another forum about *HOW to properly raise a dacron mainsail*: How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail - SailboatOwners.com

2. We do 1-2 races a year, but I'd like better performance overall. Cross-cut or tri-radial? I'd like to stay away from laminates but NorDac Radian looks like an alternative for a dacron tri-radial. Opinion?
*** for only 1-2 races/yr. and for shape 'versatility' cross cut with 'high quality' cloth will get you there.

3. My current main, the original, is nearly roachless. I'd like to max the roach without interfering with the backstay. Opinions?
*** again, get a sailmaker ON the boat to 'measure' the max. distances .... unless you can give the exact amount/dimensions/degrees of current 'mast rake'. A roach that is overlapping the backstay by a slight amount isnt going to be a problem ... but get 'chafe protection' added if you and your sailmaker agree to such an 'overlap'.

4. The PO had the existing main retrofitted with full battens to increase longevity. Should our new sail have a) 4 full battens, b) 2 full, 2 partial, or c) other combination?
*** 2 full + 2 'long' battens are the most versatile (especially when reefing) .... 'tapered battens', and suitably reinforced batten pocket ends, that is.

5. Loose or shelf foot?
*** Loose footed, for more 'adjustability' .... you wanted 'flat' that's the best way to do it.

6. Anything else that I forgot to consider?[/QUOTE]
*** over-the-top leech line. Permits leech control from the safety of the mast base, so you dont need to hang out over the water 'futzing' with a leech line when the boom is 'way out'. also the leech line cleats (at each reef point position) so arranged that pulling from a lower position automatically 'releases' the cleat at the 'next above' position.

7. If new sail is 'boltroped', precise measurement of the Tack to head (luff) connection distance (**for your 'records'**).... so you know 'when' and 'how far' to have the boltrope 'eased/adjusted' in the future.

8. If sail is boltroped on luff, have the sailmaker add extra length of boltrope at the head (secured to the headboard, etc.) so that any future boltrope 'easing' is cheap and fast. Without the 'stored and ready-to-go' extra boltrope length such 'easings/adjustments' can be time consuming and expensive. Plan on DIY readjusting the boltrope length after every season --- all you need is a tape measure, waxed heavy sail-twine and sailmakers needle-palm + triangular sailmakers needle. (If your 'old' sail had this 'feature' you'd probably be 'easing/adjusting the boltrope' instead of buying new.)

hope this helps.

[blt2ski]

Sailing News, Regattas, Tips, San Diego, Southern California
Sailing News, Regattas, Tips, San Diego, Southern California

There are two articles on the Ullman CAL sail that I have for cruising. Not issues that folks talk about, dispute the fact it is a laminate. Cost is on par with a GOOD quality Dacron, less than Norths NorLam, less mildew, less stretch etc.

marty

[Sabreman]

Thanks guys. Good suggestions.

Rich - These are awesome recommendations and I also copied the How To Raise a Dacron Sail article. I'll give it a good read very soon. In the mean time, I have a couple of questions/comments.

1. The "over the top" leechline is something that "d not heard of before. If I understand correctly, I'd have to run it through a sheave to the base of the mast. Correct? I can see the benefit, but I don't have any spare sheaves at the mast head. Is there another way to get the line down the mast?

2. The preload graphics in the article are especially illuminating. In my avatar, taken in August during the MD Governor's Cup race, my mainsheet is tensioned to the max and the leech is very elongated. Interestingly enough, my pickup crew of go-fast racers didn't think to tension the halyard with the sheet. I thought that it was enough to keep the wrinkles out of the luff. I won't forget your graphics in the future.

3. Do you have a photo of the extra boltrope at the head? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Do you mean that an extra 4" of boltrope should be coiled at the head? If so, to "ease" it, how much of the stitching of the boltrope needs to be undone for it to have an effect? That is, do I unstitch 6" and the sail will take up the slack? I think I see what you're getting at.

Stupid Question - I'm at least 60 miles from the nearest sailmaker. I'd love for one to measure my boat, but I don't think that it's practical. I know that most sailmakers have measurement forms and I can take accurate measurements. But is it feasible or even good practice to give my old main to the sailmaker to use for measurements?

Thanks for the help.

[RichH]

1. The "over the top" leechline is something that "d not heard of before. If I understand correctly, I'd have to run it through a sheave to the base of the mast. Correct?
***** NO, not correct. The leech line runs up normally to the headboard but instead of being attached/sewn near the headboard it continues to a 'cheekblock' mounted ON the headboard then continues in a small sleeve down along the luff tape .... For evey 'cleat' (each reef position) at the leech there is also a cleat at the luff, and the leech cord is exposed (not in the luff sleeve at each luff reef cringle. .... NO need to mount any sheeves at the mast base, etc., although one 'can' run the leech line all the way back to the cockpit if you really want too ((IMHO - adds unnecessary 'clutter').

3. Do you have a photo of the extra boltrope at the head? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Do you mean that an extra 4" of boltrope should be coiled at the head? If so, to "ease" it, how much of the stitching of the boltrope needs to be undone for it to have an effect? That is, do I unstitch 6" and the sail will take up the slack? I think I see what you're getting at.
***** You cut the old twine that holds the boltrope in place to 'free the boltrope, then allow the 'free' boltrope + a bit of 'stored' Brope.to slide down the luff sleeve until you get the correct/restored OEM luff dimension (from YOUR records/dimensions), then 'restitch/re-lash' with new sailtwine. 6" of extra B-rope lashed along the top of the headboard will be 'plenty'.

But is it feasible or even good practice to give my old main to the sailmaker to use for measurements?
****You need to measure the RIG, not the old sail as the old sail may have been dimensionally in error .... and the sailmaker needs to know 'how much rig there is to accommodate 'stretching out' that boltrope preload to its 'max'. Very accurately measure the RIG, including the degrees of mast rake if you cant get a sailmaker to the boat. Then, you can include the 'old sail' to be measured. If you measure and make a mistake ... its entirely YOUR problem; if the sailmaker measures and makes a mistake ... its HIS/HER problem, not yours.

I can send a jpg graphic ..... tonight Sailnet is rejecting all my grafx uploads for some unknown reason. Email me at RhmpL33atattdotnet and I'll reply with a jpg file. of what we're discussing.

.... or will send the grafx to anyone else interested in an over-the-top-leechline set up, etc.

:-)

[RichH]

ooooops, forgot to mention.
If you intend to RACE, be SURE to tell the sailmaker this intent .... and then discuss 'how FLAT' the luff-entry shape should be. A 'race' (flat luff 'entry') cut sail will require 'very precise and constant' helmsmanship in all conditions. A sail with a flat 'entry' will have a very narrow angle between 'luffing' and 'separating' and you should be a damn good/precise helmsman to have such a sail. A flat luff entry sail will definitely keep you busy at the helm.

A cruising cut 'entry' shape is cut more 'rounded' ... so the helmsmans doesnt have to 'precisely' steer as a 'rounded entry shape' is 'forgiving' to the helsman, but not all that aerodynamically 'efficient' because the attack angle between luffing and separating is quite large. You should perhaps discuss an entry shape 'somewhere between' a race cut and cruiser's cut. ... more important for jibs/genoas than mainsails.

You simply cant get such 'tweakings' from an offshore 'mail order' loft.

[Sabreman]

Thanks Rich.

You leech line explanation clarifies it. I like the idea and admit that I've never even heard of it before. I'll definitely discuss it with whomever I chose to build the sail.

Regarding the entry, I know what you mean and will probably go with something closer to a cruising shape. I think that the performance increase from old to new will be enough to make me smile. The reality is that when cruising or daysailing shorthanded, I don't pay nearly as much attention to course and trim as I would in a race situation.

Regarding whether the old sail is still any good, I suspect that maybe it could be tweaked to get some life into it. But it is 26 years old and been converted to full battens and has a rather big belly as you can partially see in my avatar. And I'll freely admit that I just want a new sail.

[svsirius]

Originally Posted by Sabreman

Thanks Rich.


Regarding whether the old sail is still any good, I suspect that maybe it could be tweaked to get some life into it. But it is 26 years old and been converted to full battens and has a rather big belly as you can partially see in my avatar. And I'll freely admit that I just want a new sail.

I can pretty safely say that a 26yr old dacron sail has minimal shape left in from a racing perspective if any. Don't spend another nickel on that sail. Either use it till it self destructs as something that catches some wind or invest in a new main which will transform your boat.

I was truly shocked the first time I put new sails on a boat. Now I spend the dollars for triradial performance cruising sails cause I think they make that much of a difference.

[blt2ski]

You might check with some of the sail reps, to see if they are coming up/down your way in the next month or so, and see if they will measure you boat. I am sure they would stop by if visiting another boat near by. I had that done with my UK main. Rep is about 30-40 miles north of me. He stopped after dropping his mom off at the airport another 30 miles south. Measured mine and a slip mates at the same time.

If you have a brand you "want" make the call, I'm sure they will make an effort to come by. I would if in there shoes.

Marty