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  #191  
Old 09-15-2011
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anchor comparison link

Hi. I posted these scans of the PBO anchor test article on a separate thread but thought i'd repost the first and last pages here. apologies for any redundancy. again, usual caveats like unrealistic conditions/scope, bottom characteristics, slightly different weights, not all anchors compared.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1117065...67141600472018

https://picasaweb.google.com/1117065...67129456125170

https://picasaweb.google.com/1117065...67102229691090
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  #192  
Old 09-15-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
The Spade has a three dimensional tip because it is filled with lead. The new one has a one dimensional tip like a Wasi/Bugel, Manson Supreme or Rocna. Both the Ronca and Manson Supreme are direct adaptations of the Wasi but most folks only know about the Manson or Rocna. The shank and upper shape of the fluke are shaped similarly to the Spade but the fluke is one dimensional, like a knife, and will likely slice into a hard bottom better than a Spade will.





The cross sections of the tips are entirely different..

Spade:

Rocna:

Manson Supreme:




Of course they do that is the anchor that founded the company. How would that go over after all the bashing Alain laid on Rocna to say the new "hoop" anchor is a better performer?? Alain tried numerous anchors after the Spade including the Oceane, Sword and "purportedly" the Raya but none was as good as the original Spade...



Heck no.. I have a Fortress, Spade steel and a Rocna (Canadian built).

I also own a genuine Bruce, Manson Supreme, Spade aluminum, Supermax, two CQR's & a Danforth. I had a Delta but sold it with the last boat.

The search for the best anchor has been long and arduous and both the Manson Supreme and Rocna have handily out performed both of my Spades though the steel Spade is clearly a top performer just not the one I'd choose as my primary as it sets less well in a hard bottom than either my Manson Supreme or Rocna. Despite the Rocna debacle, and the horrendous company they have become, our Canadian built anchor is an incredible performing hook.

Here's some of the ground tackle in our quiver..


Unlike most boaters I thoroughly put all my anchors through the ringer before placing them on our bow. I own a 5000 pound digital load cell, just like West Marine and other anchor tests have used, and have used my brothers fishing boat to test holding, setting and veers. Doing this allows me to know exactly why an anchor goes on the bow of our boat and why others don't.
Great post

When I had said that the new anchor was like the Spade I was referring the shank and the form but you are right in what refers the one dimensional fluke.

Maybe you are right, maybe the new anchor from Spade will outperform the Spade even being less expensive. Finally something new to watch on the next test anchors :-)

Your experience with several types of anchor seems great and very informative. Regarding the Spade it makes sense the anchor to be a bit less easy to set on hard ground due to the tridimensional fluke but on the tests i have read and they were several the Spade outperformed the Mason in Sand and had at least the same holding power than the Rocna, if not more.

By the way do you have any input on the other anchor that is now a bestseller in Europe, the Kobra II?

Plastimo Kobra Anchor Stainless Steel | GulfStreamShop.com

Voiles et Voiliers : Equipement - Kobra 2

Curiously I had one for 7 years without never testing it. It was my second anchor on my boat, The first one was one of the first Spade and it never failed me and I anchor a lot.

This season I charted a boat with one and I was impressed. In about the 20 or 25 times that I have anchored it set always on the first time. All right,I don't drop my hook without looking and the med waters are mostly clear but that is an impressive performance.

That anchor is considered in Europe as having the best Quality/price ratio.

I will need to buy a new anchor soon but I am limited to anchors without an arch (many new boats with a bowsprit cannot have them) so this one at that price is a strong candidate.

Maybe this time I will have a bigger Kobra as main anchor and a smaller one has second anchor

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-15-2011 at 03:40 PM.
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  #193  
Old 09-15-2011
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Wasi Bugle originally made in Germany. Wasi stopped making them there many many copies about but Lewmar is making and selling them under licence.
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  #194  
Old 09-19-2011
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I have read one more test anchor, a recent one, this time on the British Magazine PBO (Pratical Boat Owner). The anchors were the usual including Rocna, Manson, Spade, CQR, Bruce and Delta but this test was a bit different, more complicated and they did not limit themselves to pull the anchors till they drag (DHF). They not only normalized the results but also found the Ultimate Holding Capacity (UHC) that is smaller than the Dynamic Holding Force, but more reliable and useful.

The overall conclusion was the usual, the Rocna, Mason and Spade are great anchors. If we want to be picky the Spade was the best performer.

They used a complicated system to determinate the UHC that is the minimum force needed to move the anchor and that is different from dragging. Good anchors move very slowly on the bottom resisting pressure and we don't call normally that dragging.

That means that they had pulled the anchor till it moves then they will stopped pulling without diminishing the pressure till it stops moving slowly on the bottom and stays stationary. They have made this sequence 6 or seven times. The Medium value is the normalized one. The anchors were tested 1m apart and were tested several times and on two different grounds: Hard Sand/Mud and Medium hard sand.

Then they have attributed an efficiency index to the tested anchors. For that they divided the UHC by the weight of each anchor. The anchors were tested in about two different approximated sizes 6Kg and 15kg but as all the anchors had not exactly the same weight they introduced this efficiency concept to give more precision to the test.

Complicated? Is what happens when you put a University physics professor doing the job

One of the conclusions that is nice to know is that the efficiency of the bigger anchors is about 30% better than on the small ones. The efficiency numbers are these (the smaller number for the less efficient smaller anchor, the bigger one for the heavier and more efficient one):

Efficiency:

Spade 24; 32

Rocna 21; 30

Manson 12; 21

Delta 8; 11

Bruce 5; 6

CQR 7; 8

Regarding setting the anchor they say :

Excellent for Spade, Rocna and Mason.

CQR - Dragged on surface;

Delta - moderate/good;

Bruce - Dragged on surface.

Conclusions:

Spade, Rocna and Mason: Excellent performance

Delta: Good performance

CQR and Bruce: Poor performance.


I will add something that is very important:

The similar sized Spade, Rocna and Mason anchors have, as the numbers show, a close performance however Spade, for the same size of boat recommends heavier anchors than Rocna and specially more heavier than Mason that seems a lot more optimistic about the holding power a boat needs.

Some prefer to buy Mason because they just recommends less heavier and therefore less expensive anchors for a given sized boat, comparing with Spade and Rocna. That only means that those sailors are trusting on the more optimistic seller since the holding power is very similar on similar weighted anchors made by these manufacturers.

Even if the holding power of Mason is very good it is inferior (not only on this test but on more tests that I had saw) than the one from Spade or Rocna and I find funny that it is the one with less holding power that recommends the lighter anchors for the same boat.

Do you think it does not make sense? Yes it makes sense on a commercial point of view because there would be some sailors that would believe that because they are more optimistic their anchors have more holding power than the ones from their close competitors.

Regarding optimism and sailors there is an old saying: The bottom of the ocean is full of optimistic sailors

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-19-2011 at 02:59 PM.
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  #195  
Old 09-19-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
All anchors are evolutions. The Rocna is a step forward, perhaps the best overall design at this time, but...

* The angles are not unique. If you look at just on half of a Northill anchor, for example, it looks pretty similar. I had a genuine Norhill on my last boat and it's setting behavior was very much like the Rocna (other problems).
* The shank obviously came from Delta and Bruce, as well as some others.
* The roll bar, perhaps, came from Bugel. A very similar anchor that I believe is a bit older.
* The attitude, perhaps from Fortress ( ).
* The Manson tests better than Rocna on occasion. Though It seems probable there was some copying, it is also possible there are some improvements. I do wish they would lose the second slot; pointless and actually costing them some sales, I think.

Good anchors. I just they would lighten up and realize that happy customers (both Fortress and Rocna) speak loudest.
Just to be clear below is my full post, part of which was quited above. The main factor in deciding to go with the Rocna was all the test results that I could get my hands on.

"For what it is worth the Sail magazine was what originally started my interest in the Rocna. I still have the magazine laying around somewhere and when I get a chance I'll get it out and re-read it. However, my clear recollection is that the Rocna was the best performing anchor in the test and by more than just a marginal amount. That is why I began to consider buying the Rocna instead of the Manson Supreme in addition to my impression, right or wrong that all Manson's were knock offs.

Some time later I saw the synopsis of the Sail test on the Rocna website. I didn't compare what was on the site vs the Sail article line by line as it seemed to be consistent with what I remembered from the Sail article."
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  #196  
Old 09-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have read one more test anchor, a recent one, this time on the British Magazine PBO (Pratical Boat Owner). The anchors were the usual including Rocna, Manson, Spade, CQR, Bruce and Delta but this test was a bit different, more complicated and they did not limit themselves to pull the anchors till they drag (DHF). They not only normalized the results but also found the Ultimate Holding Capacity (UHC) that is smaller than the Dynamic Holding Force, but more reliable and useful.

The overall conclusion was the usual, the Rocna, Mason and Spade are great anchors. If we want to be picky the Spade was the best performer.

They used a complicated system to determinate the UHC that is the minimum force needed to move the anchor and that is different from dragging. Good anchors move very slowly on the bottom resisting pressure and we don't call normally that dragging.

That means that they had pulled the anchor till it moves then they will stopped pulling without diminishing the pressure till it stops moving slowly on the bottom and stays stationary. They have made this sequence 6 or seven times. The Medium value is the normalized one. The anchors were tested 1m apart and were tested several times and on two different grounds: Hard Sand/Mud and Medium hard sand.

Then they have attributed an efficiency index to the tested anchors. For that they divided the UHC by the weight of each anchor. The anchors were tested in about two different approximated sizes 6Kg and 15kg but as all the anchors had not exactly the same weight they introduced this efficiency concept to give more precision to the test.

Complicated? Is what happens when you put a University physics professor doing the job

One of the conclusions that is nice to know is that the efficiency of the bigger anchors is about 30% better than on the small ones. The efficiency numbers are these (the smaller number for the less efficient smaller anchor, the bigger one for the heavier and more efficient one):

Efficiency:

Spade 24; 32

Rocna 21; 30

Manson 12; 21

Delta 8; 11

Bruce 5; 6

CQR 7; 8

Regarding setting the anchor they say :

Excellent for Spade, Rocna and Mason.

CQR - Dragged on surface;

Delta - moderate/good;

Bruce - Dragged on surface.

Conclusions:

Spade, Rocna and Mason: Excellent performance

Delta: Good performance

CQR and Bruce: Poor performance.


I will add something that is very important:

The similar sized Spade, Rocna and Mason anchors have, as the numbers show, a close performance however Spade, for the same size of boat recommends heavier anchors than Rocna and specially more heavier than Mason that seems a lot more optimistic about the holding power a boat needs.

Some prefer to buy Mason because they just recommends less heavier and therefore less expensive anchors for a given sized boat, comparing with Spade and Rocna. That only means that those sailors are trusting on the more optimistic seller since the holding power is very similar on similar weighted anchors made by these manufacturers.

Even if the holding power of Mason is very good it is inferior (not only on this test but on more tests that I had saw) than the one from Spade or Rocna and I find funny that it is the one with less holding power that recommends the lighter anchors for the same boat.

Do you think it does not make sense? Yes it makes sense on a commercial point of view because there would be some sailors that would believe that because they are more optimistic their anchors have more holding power than the ones from their close competitors.

Regarding optimism and sailors there is an old saying: The bottom of the ocean is full of optimistic sailors

Regards

Paulo
Which Rocna New Zealand, Canada or China.

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  #197  
Old 09-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitainMike View Post
Which Rocna New Zealand, Canada or China.

...
I am not saying that Rocna has or had problems with the quality of its steel but that would be irrelevant in this test since the forces that were utilized to drag the anchors did not damage any of them.

The same anchor, with the same design, with the same weight made with premium grade steel or a lower but still high grade steel would have performed the same way on this test.

Only a specific destructive test could have shown the differences in resistance namely in what regards bending and breaking.

Answering directly to your question, I don't know, but the test was made some months ago so the chances are that the Rocna are the ones you can find now in the market.

Regards

Paulo
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  #198  
Old 09-20-2011
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Wow. I am surprised at the low rating achieved by the Bruce. Paulo, you know the Malo uses a Bruce as primary and thus far in mud (medium soft) and sand (medium soft) it has been every bit as good as our old Rocna on the Van De Stadt.
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  #199  
Old 09-20-2011
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Wow. I am surprised at the low rating achieved by the Bruce. Paulo, you know the Malo uses a Bruce as primary and thus far in mud (medium soft) and sand (medium soft) it has been every bit as good as our old Rocna on the Van De Stadt.
Hi Andrews,

Not only on this test but on all tests I have saw (and were many).

A Bruce is an anchor and works as one but its performance is not much better than a CQR. Of course a Bruce will hold your boat in normal conditions but the holding power is just about 1/3 of the more modern anchors (Spade, Rocna, Manson, Kobra).

On normal conditions that does not make any difference but I remember a night in Formentera with 40k winds. I moved about 2m (during all night) and had to be awake because in a big and crowded anchorage many other boats were dragging fast and some towards me.

At the time I found odd and was a bit worried because I noticed that I was moving very very slowly. Now with all this testing I know that is the way a good anchor works on the limit.

But pay attention because this is the way modern anchors work, many of the old ones hold till start moving than break and don't set again. That' s what I was seeing all round me on that night.

Regards

Paulo
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  #200  
Old 10-23-2011
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Well, I've tried very hard to be objective about the whole Rocna thing...defending them when there was little to no real factual evidence at hand. But this email that was posted over at CF by Evans (who obtained it by perfectly legit means) seems to be pretty damning evidence for a lot of the issues we've discussed.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/rocnatext.pdf

Wow.
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