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-   -   Anchor Wars - In Search of the Lost Truth. (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/73674-anchor-wars-search-lost-truth.html)

tdw 04-15-2011 07:21 PM

Anchor Wars - In Search of the Lost Truth.
 
Ok now ... This is a topic that has been unmercifully hammered out principally in the YBW forums (post count off the scale) and also in a lively thread over at AS.

Really there is no need for more of the same here but there seems to be a couple of elephants still sitting in the corner and maybe we should try and get some answers.

I'm not going to refer to threads on other forums, really that is somewhat pointless.

Read on if you dare.

tdw 04-15-2011 07:44 PM

Brian from Fortress stated ..

Quote:

1. The Rocna anchor did not "win" the West Marine test, the results of which were reported in Sail, Yachting Monthly, and Power & MotorYacht magazines which Rocna has been falsely claiming since October 2006.

2. The Rocna anchor did not have "40% greater holding power than the next best anchor" in this test as they have falsely claimed since then as well.

3. Rocna falsely claimed that they possessed RINA certifications for their anchors which they clearly did not.

4. Craig Smith of Rocna purchased the domain name of a deceased competitor (Alain Poiraud) and this domain name is now pointed to a web site where this deceased competitor's product (Spade) is being denigrated.

Based on the above, and with these facts known, why anyone would consider purchasing the product of a company with so little integrity, or would even attempt to defend them, is incomprehensible.......no matter how great their product might be.

A very serious issue now has yet to be resolved, and that is the composition of the steel material that Rocna is using for their Chinese anchors. Despite Rocna's claims, which people have trouble believing for obvious reasons, there is a great concern that this Chinese steel material is inferior to the steel used previously with the NZ and Canadian made anchors.
1. Did Rocna really claim to have "won" this battle or did they merely claim that the test showed that Rocna had gained the highest average holding power - maximum before release ?

2. In that test did the report say that Rocna had an average holding power of 40% higher than nearest rival ?

3. It seems this may be the case but is it black and white ?

4. Is this true or was the domain purchased well before Alain Poiraud's death ? Who actually now owns this domain, Craig Smith or Peter Smith ?

Brian, you offered to post the real Sail results. Please do so. A version of the Sail report was on the Rocna web site but has apparently been removed. I'd also like to see Sail's comments on the supposed Rocna falsification.

My quote is merely part of Brian's original post which can be found in the Crib Notes thread.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/720140-post37.html

Further ..

Isn't it true that no proof has been offered as to Rocna using inferior grade metal ? The original claimant "Whalebone" has been outed as a disgruntled ex Rocna employee and has been strangely silent in offering his claimed proof.

Is it fair to claim that Rocna "falsified test results and certifications" and if so why ?

The questions raised are quite damning of Rocna and of Craig Smith. I think its fair that we get the answers even if those answers do in fact damn Rocna and/or CS.

Craig Smith 04-15-2011 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdw (Post 720853)
1. Did Rocna really claim to have "won" this battle or did they merely claim that the test showed that Rocna had gained the highest average holding power - maximum before release ?

This is the graph that seems to irritate the competition:
http://www.rocna.com/rocna-world/roc...-test-results/

The data is from the original main SAIL graph, which is here:
http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-an...ce-testing.php
(On that graph the bars are in green).

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdw (Post 720853)
2. In that test did the report say that Rocna had an average holding power of 40% higher than nearest rival ?

Max Before Releasing (average holding power) data off the graph:
Rocna - 4800 lb
Spade - 3300 lb
...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdw (Post 720853)
3. It seems this may be the case but is it black and white ?

SAIL published several other charts on following pages under a sidebar to illustrate certain points, such as effect on scope and effect of location. These charts take subsets of the data and don't even include all anchors. However because they appear to show different results, they allow agendized individuals to try to muddy the waters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdw (Post 720853)
4. Is this true or was the [ancora-latina.com] domain purchased well before Alain Poiraud's death ? Who actually now owns this domain, Craig Smith or Peter Smith ?

I do. It was purchased on 1st September last year. Alain died in February this year. The domain details are easily checked.

Additionally, the people at Ancora Latina always denied any connection whatsoever with Poiraud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdw (Post 720853)
Brian, you offered to post the real Sail results. Please do so. A version of the Sail report was on the Rocna web site but has apparently been removed.

It hasn't been removed, it's here:
www.rocna.com/rocna-world/independent-reviews/

LinekinBayCD 04-16-2011 05:47 AM

For what it is worth the Sail magazine was what originally started my interest in the Rocna. I still have the magazine laying around somewhere and when I get a chance I'll get it out and re-read it. However, my clear recollection is that the Rocna was the best performing anchor in the test and by more than just a marginal amount. That is why I began to consider buying the Rocna instead of the Manson Supreme in addition to my impression, right or wrong that all Manson's were knock offs.

Some time later I saw the synopsis of the Sail test on the Rocna website. I didn't compare what was on the site vs the Sail article line by line as it seemed to be consistent with what I remembered from the Sail article.

Minnewaska 04-16-2011 07:00 AM

Craig,

I understand that your Father invented the Rocna. It seems like an outstanding anchor. Whether true or not, I strongly suspect any current controversy over performance or manufacturing is going to be worked out.

Can you clarify why you engage in the defense today? Is it out of pride of your Father's work or do you have a financial interest in the success of Rocna in any way? Or other?

Craig Smith 04-16-2011 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 720958)
Is it out of pride of your Father's work or do you have a financial interest in the success of Rocna in any way?

Both.

PCP 04-16-2011 08:41 AM

That's true that Rocna has been campaigning in a very dirty and unfair way against all the other brands on the market and claiming things that are not true regarding boat tests (there are a lot of independent tests made by dozens of European magazines to join to the few American ones).

It is also true that the Rocna is a good anchor. After reading most of those tests I would say that global impression is that the Rocna is the easiest anchor to get a hold on most bottoms, slightly better than the Spade and the one that works better with minimal rode. With normal rode the best holding power on most grounds belongs to the Spade.

I will buy a Spade for my next boat, probably because I have used a Spade for almost 10 years and I have not reasons to complain, except have to being awake at night during blows to dodge all the other boats that were dragging towards me:D . But I think that I would be also very well served with a Rocna.

About test magazines results, they quote some on the Spade site:

SPADE anchor by Press - Ancre Spade Sword Skrew - Ancres haute performance -

Regards

Paulo

Minnewaska 04-16-2011 08:52 AM

Not an anchor engineer here, but the Rocna just looks like a spade with a roll bar. Its hard to imagine how that would make it less effective, although, I wouldn't guarantee it to be more effective.

PCP 04-16-2011 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 720983)
Not an anchor engineer here, but the Rocna just looks like a spade with a roll bar. Its hard to imagine how that would make it less effective, although, I wouldn't guarantee it to be more effective.

One of the things I have learned looking at all those boat tests (with lots of anchors) is that almost similar anchors can have very different behaviors.

If you look well they have common points but they have also differences and not only on the roll bar:

For Those About To Rocna…

Description - Ancre Spade Sword Skrew - Ancres haute performance -

This one looks more like a Spade and it is American, but I never herd about it. It looks good.

Ultra Anchors | Stainless Steel Anchors | Quickline USA

Regards

Paulo

pdqaltair 04-16-2011 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LinekinBayCD (Post 720954)
...my impression, right or wrong that all Manson's were knock offs.

All anchors are evolutions. The Rocna is a step forward, perhaps the best overall design at this time, but...

* The angles are not unique. If you look at just on half of a Northill anchor, for example, it looks pretty similar. I had a genuine Norhill on my last boat and it's setting behavior was very much like the Rocna (other problems).
* The shank obviously came from Delta and Bruce, as well as some others.
* The roll bar, perhaps, came from Bugel. A very similar anchor that I believe is a bit older.
* The attitude, perhaps from Fortress (:laugher ).
* The Manson tests better than Rocna on occasion. Though It seems probable there was some copying, it is also possible there are some improvements. I do wish they would lose the second slot; pointless and actually costing them some sales, I think.

Good anchors. I just they would lighten up and realize that happy customers (both Fortress and Rocna) speak loudest.


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