Anchor Wars - In Search of the Lost Truth. - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree9Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 04-15-2011
tdw's Avatar
tdw tdw is online now
Super Fuzzy Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 14,574
Thanks: 5
Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 10
tdw is a jewel in the rough tdw is a jewel in the rough tdw is a jewel in the rough
Anchor Wars - In Search of the Lost Truth.

Ok now ... This is a topic that has been unmercifully hammered out principally in the YBW forums (post count off the scale) and also in a lively thread over at AS.

Really there is no need for more of the same here but there seems to be a couple of elephants still sitting in the corner and maybe we should try and get some answers.

I'm not going to refer to threads on other forums, really that is somewhat pointless.

Read on if you dare.
__________________
Andrew B

"Do you think God gets stoned? I think so... Look at the platypus." Robin Williams.

Last edited by tdw; 04-15-2011 at 08:03 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 04-15-2011
tdw's Avatar
tdw tdw is online now
Super Fuzzy Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 14,574
Thanks: 5
Thanked 73 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 10
tdw is a jewel in the rough tdw is a jewel in the rough tdw is a jewel in the rough
Brian from Fortress stated ..

Quote:
1. The Rocna anchor did not "win" the West Marine test, the results of which were reported in Sail, Yachting Monthly, and Power & MotorYacht magazines which Rocna has been falsely claiming since October 2006.

2. The Rocna anchor did not have "40% greater holding power than the next best anchor" in this test as they have falsely claimed since then as well.

3. Rocna falsely claimed that they possessed RINA certifications for their anchors which they clearly did not.

4. Craig Smith of Rocna purchased the domain name of a deceased competitor (Alain Poiraud) and this domain name is now pointed to a web site where this deceased competitor's product (Spade) is being denigrated.

Based on the above, and with these facts known, why anyone would consider purchasing the product of a company with so little integrity, or would even attempt to defend them, is incomprehensible.......no matter how great their product might be.

A very serious issue now has yet to be resolved, and that is the composition of the steel material that Rocna is using for their Chinese anchors. Despite Rocna's claims, which people have trouble believing for obvious reasons, there is a great concern that this Chinese steel material is inferior to the steel used previously with the NZ and Canadian made anchors.
1. Did Rocna really claim to have "won" this battle or did they merely claim that the test showed that Rocna had gained the highest average holding power - maximum before release ?

2. In that test did the report say that Rocna had an average holding power of 40% higher than nearest rival ?

3. It seems this may be the case but is it black and white ?

4. Is this true or was the domain purchased well before Alain Poiraud's death ? Who actually now owns this domain, Craig Smith or Peter Smith ?

Brian, you offered to post the real Sail results. Please do so. A version of the Sail report was on the Rocna web site but has apparently been removed. I'd also like to see Sail's comments on the supposed Rocna falsification.

My quote is merely part of Brian's original post which can be found in the Crib Notes thread.

Rocna crib notes

Further ..

Isn't it true that no proof has been offered as to Rocna using inferior grade metal ? The original claimant "Whalebone" has been outed as a disgruntled ex Rocna employee and has been strangely silent in offering his claimed proof.

Is it fair to claim that Rocna "falsified test results and certifications" and if so why ?

The questions raised are quite damning of Rocna and of Craig Smith. I think its fair that we get the answers even if those answers do in fact damn Rocna and/or CS.
__________________
Andrew B

"Do you think God gets stoned? I think so... Look at the platypus." Robin Williams.

Last edited by tdw; 04-15-2011 at 08:11 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 04-15-2011
Craig Smith's Avatar
Anchorsmith
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 253
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 9
Craig Smith is on a distinguished road
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
1. Did Rocna really claim to have "won" this battle or did they merely claim that the test showed that Rocna had gained the highest average holding power - maximum before release ?
This is the graph that seems to irritate the competition:
http://www.rocna.com/rocna-world/roc...-test-results/

The data is from the original main SAIL graph, which is here:
http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-an...ce-testing.php
(On that graph the bars are in green).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
2. In that test did the report say that Rocna had an average holding power of 40% higher than nearest rival ?
Max Before Releasing (average holding power) data off the graph:
Rocna - 4800 lb
Spade - 3300 lb
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
3. It seems this may be the case but is it black and white ?
SAIL published several other charts on following pages under a sidebar to illustrate certain points, such as effect on scope and effect of location. These charts take subsets of the data and don't even include all anchors. However because they appear to show different results, they allow agendized individuals to try to muddy the waters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
4. Is this true or was the [ancora-latina.com] domain purchased well before Alain Poiraud's death ? Who actually now owns this domain, Craig Smith or Peter Smith ?
I do. It was purchased on 1st September last year. Alain died in February this year. The domain details are easily checked.

Additionally, the people at Ancora Latina always denied any connection whatsoever with Poiraud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Brian, you offered to post the real Sail results. Please do so. A version of the Sail report was on the Rocna web site but has apparently been removed.
It hasn't been removed, it's here:
www.rocna.com/rocna-world/independent-reviews/
__________________
Craig Smith

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Sailnet Disclosure: Craig is the son of the designer of Rocna and has a financial interest in its success.

Last edited by Craig Smith; 08-16-2011 at 09:00 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 04-16-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 673
Thanks: 8
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
LinekinBayCD is on a distinguished road
For what it is worth the Sail magazine was what originally started my interest in the Rocna. I still have the magazine laying around somewhere and when I get a chance I'll get it out and re-read it. However, my clear recollection is that the Rocna was the best performing anchor in the test and by more than just a marginal amount. That is why I began to consider buying the Rocna instead of the Manson Supreme in addition to my impression, right or wrong that all Manson's were knock offs.

Some time later I saw the synopsis of the Sail test on the Rocna website. I didn't compare what was on the site vs the Sail article line by line as it seemed to be consistent with what I remembered from the Sail article.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 04-16-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 9,105
Thanks: 10
Thanked 142 Times in 128 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Craig,

I understand that your Father invented the Rocna. It seems like an outstanding anchor. Whether true or not, I strongly suspect any current controversy over performance or manufacturing is going to be worked out.

Can you clarify why you engage in the defense today? Is it out of pride of your Father's work or do you have a financial interest in the success of Rocna in any way? Or other?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 04-16-2011
Craig Smith's Avatar
Anchorsmith
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 253
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 9
Craig Smith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Is it out of pride of your Father's work or do you have a financial interest in the success of Rocna in any way?
Both.
__________________
Craig Smith

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Sailnet Disclosure: Craig is the son of the designer of Rocna and has a financial interest in its success.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 04-16-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,186
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
That's true that Rocna has been campaigning in a very dirty and unfair way against all the other brands on the market and claiming things that are not true regarding boat tests (there are a lot of independent tests made by dozens of European magazines to join to the few American ones).

It is also true that the Rocna is a good anchor. After reading most of those tests I would say that global impression is that the Rocna is the easiest anchor to get a hold on most bottoms, slightly better than the Spade and the one that works better with minimal rode. With normal rode the best holding power on most grounds belongs to the Spade.

I will buy a Spade for my next boat, probably because I have used a Spade for almost 10 years and I have not reasons to complain, except have to being awake at night during blows to dodge all the other boats that were dragging towards me . But I think that I would be also very well served with a Rocna.

About test magazines results, they quote some on the Spade site:

SPADE anchor by Press - Ancre Spade Sword Skrew - Ancres haute performance -

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 04-16-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 9,105
Thanks: 10
Thanked 142 Times in 128 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Not an anchor engineer here, but the Rocna just looks like a spade with a roll bar. Its hard to imagine how that would make it less effective, although, I wouldn't guarantee it to be more effective.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 04-16-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,186
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Not an anchor engineer here, but the Rocna just looks like a spade with a roll bar. Its hard to imagine how that would make it less effective, although, I wouldn't guarantee it to be more effective.
One of the things I have learned looking at all those boat tests (with lots of anchors) is that almost similar anchors can have very different behaviors.

If you look well they have common points but they have also differences and not only on the roll bar:

For Those About To Rocna…

Description - Ancre Spade Sword Skrew - Ancres haute performance -

This one looks more like a Spade and it is American, but I never herd about it. It looks good.

Ultra Anchors | Stainless Steel Anchors | Quickline USA

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-16-2011 at 10:18 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 04-16-2011
pdqaltair's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 2,246
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 35 Posts
Rep Power: 6
pdqaltair is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinekinBayCD View Post
...my impression, right or wrong that all Manson's were knock offs.
All anchors are evolutions. The Rocna is a step forward, perhaps the best overall design at this time, but...

* The angles are not unique. If you look at just on half of a Northill anchor, for example, it looks pretty similar. I had a genuine Norhill on my last boat and it's setting behavior was very much like the Rocna (other problems).
* The shank obviously came from Delta and Bruce, as well as some others.
* The roll bar, perhaps, came from Bugel. A very similar anchor that I believe is a bit older.
* The attitude, perhaps from Fortress ( ).
* The Manson tests better than Rocna on occasion. Though It seems probable there was some copying, it is also possible there are some improvements. I do wish they would lose the second slot; pointless and actually costing them some sales, I think.

Good anchors. I just they would lighten up and realize that happy customers (both Fortress and Rocna) speak loudest.
__________________
(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Faster; 04-19-2011 at 10:59 AM. Reason: fixed quote
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
In Search of the Lost Thread tdw General Discussion (sailing related) 10 03-07-2007 11:02 PM
Search Continues For S.F. Scientist Lost At Sea (CBS 5 Bay Area) NewsReader News Feeds 0 02-01-2007 07:15 PM
Search for lost computer scientist nears end - CNN International NewsReader News Feeds 0 02-01-2007 08:15 AM
Star wars bar colehankins General Discussion (sailing related) 2 09-12-2003 05:41 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:03 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.