Schaefer Furling conundrum - toggle or no toggle? - SailNet Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 15 Old 05-26-2011 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JordanH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Schaefer Furling conundrum - toggle or no toggle?

Hi All,
I just got off the phone with my marine surveyor. He's warned me of grave consequences of using the furling system "as-is" on the boat I am about to purchase because the forestay is not attached to the mast via a toggle. However, the Schaefer website clearly states that the forestay does not require to be modified for use with this system.

The unit is a Schaefer Snapfurl 700 circa ~2005.

The seller of the boat believes he has installed it correctly.
The surveyor says that he has handled several insurance claims because it was not toggled. Albeit, not from the Schaefer brand furlers.
I will be calling Schaefer in the morning, but I suspect they'll just repeat what is on their site.

Does anyone know if a toggle is required or recommended?
Has anyone heard of problems with a Schaefer furler shearing off the forestay?
Is there sufficient grounds to ask the seller to reduce the price to cover the cost of the new forestay and perhaps shortening furler and luff of the genoa?

I was comfortable following Schaefer's installation instructions until the surveyor said that all the other brands require a toggle for such a system and that this has been a common problem that's been around for a while.

Any experience you care to share on the above would be appreciated.
(Not to rush things, but the sale completes on Saturday... so QUICK! Thanks)
JordanH is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 Old 05-26-2011
Senior Member
 
mitiempo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,499
Thanks: 0
Thanked 96 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 8
   
All stays and shrouds should have toggles. Their isn't a modification required by Schaefer because the toggle should have been there to start with. All stays will move a bit under sail. The forestay will move the most with the side pressure on the sail and if there isn't a toggle - top and bottom - the tangs will fatigue and eventually may give way causing the loss of the rig.

Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
mitiempo is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #3 of 15 Old 05-26-2011 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JordanH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Hi Brian,
The stay is attached the mast like any other boat; via a ball-type fitting.

The surveyor says that is proper for a regular stay but improper for a furler; He would like to see a universal joint type of swivel between the stay and mast to ease the tension of the roller furler that wraps around the stay.

When I look at the system, a swivel seems unnecessary as the furling unit shouldn't cause unnecessary torque around the forestay. In other words, I believe the necessary swivel is integrated into the furling system and is not required on the forestay itself.

How do you have your furler attached aloft? Did you need to cut the stay and fit a swivel?
JordanH is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #4 of 15 Old 05-27-2011
Senior Member
 
mitiempo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,499
Thanks: 0
Thanked 96 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 8
   
I don't currently have a furler.
I'm not sure what the answer is with a ball type fitting. Most boats do not have a ball type fitting. They have a pin to which the forestay is attached as shown below in the diagram and picture. With this type fitting, which is the most common, a toggle is required whether there is a furler or not.
Attached Thumbnails
fig-15.gif   IMGP0463.jpg  

Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
mitiempo is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #5 of 15 Old 05-27-2011 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JordanH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Hi Brian.
There are other types of stay fittings as well, but what you show does not include a toggle/swivel. What you show is a shackle, which is normal. The forestay fitting is slightly different on my boat but for the sake of this thread you can consider them the same.

What the surveyor is requesting is that I add a swivel/toggle below the shackle allow the forestay to rotate under load. This requires cutting down (replacing) the forestay and shortening the furling system by probably 4"... I don't know if that will impact the sails yet or not.

At any rate, I think it is unnecessary and will call Schaefer in the morning to confirm. Hopefully someone else with Schaefer furler experience will comment here as well.
JordanH is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #6 of 15 Old 05-27-2011
Senior Member
 
mitiempo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,499
Thanks: 0
Thanked 96 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 8
   
Yes, not the ideal picture I agree. It's too dark to walk the dock here to take a pic and it's the best I could find on the net.

Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
mitiempo is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #7 of 15 Old 05-27-2011
Senior Member
 
catamount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gulf of Maine
Posts: 599
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 13
 
A toggle is not the same thing as a swivel -- a toggle IS essentially the same thing as a shackle. A toggle is not supposed to allow a stay to rotate on axis, it is supposed to allow for un-fair leads where the stay attaches, as exaggerated in this illustration:

(this is actually my backstay, but it get's the point across). Any stay that carries a sail should be toggled at the top and bottom whether the sail is on a roller furler or not, because sails apply a sideways load to the stay. And it is a good idea for all the rest of the stays and shrouds to be toggled as well.

Perhaps the furler should should have a bearing that allows it to rotate around the foil, and of course there is the halyard swivel (and you want to be sure the halyard lead is such that there is no way it can get wrapped around the furler foil), but I've never heard of a swivel on the stay itself.

FWIW, I have a Schaefer 2100 roller furler unit, and do not have any kind of swivel on the stay, but the stay is toggled. The furler was installed by professional riggers, and has subsequently been removed for winter storage annually, by several different professional riggers, none of whom have ever mentioned anything about how it is set up or lacking a swivel....

Peterson 34 GREYHAWK, West Boothbay Harbor, Maine

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, a new voice for ocean conservation
catamount is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #8 of 15 Old 05-27-2011 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JordanH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Thanks guys, lets not get hung up on the term toggle. What you guys are calling the toggle is what I referred to as the stay fitting. And that's fine, we're talking about the same thing there and that's not the issue as my headstay is fitted to the mast just fine, so lets drop that part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catamount View Post
Perhaps the furler should should have a bearing that allows it to rotate around the foil, and of course there is the halyard swivel (and you want to be sure the halyard lead is such that there is no way it can get wrapped around the furler foil), but I've never heard of a swivel on the stay itself.
The top of the furler has a bearing which rotates the sail around the foil and is attached to the halyard with a swivel as you describe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catamount View Post
FWIW, I have a Schaefer 2100 roller furler unit, and do not have any kind of swivel on the stay, but the stay is toggled. The furler was installed by professional riggers, and has subsequently been removed for winter storage annually, by several different professional riggers, none of whom have ever mentioned anything about how it is set up or lacking a swivel....
This is exactly the information for which I was searching. It appears that your furler does not require a swivel on the stay and supports my feeling that the surveyor is incorrect. The surveyor is stating that I need a swivel below the toggle...

Since I don't just want my own opinion validated, is there anyone that HAS heard of a swivel on the headstay??
JordanH is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #9 of 15 Old 05-27-2011
Senior Member
 
pdqaltair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 2,562
Thanks: 1
Thanked 51 Times in 51 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Engineer types DO get hung up on words, because nomenclature should be concice.

I would not swivel a layed line that is under high load unless there was no obvious alternative. Strength is reduced when the line rotates and begins to unlay.

: : PYTHON - High Performance WIRE ROPE : :

"Do NOT use PythonŽ Ultra wire rope attached to a swivel. The rope WILL unlay resulting in an unsafe condition."

Whether forestay wire is the same, I do not know.

Code zeros and some small boats are one thing--the forestay rotates and there may be no foil (or it rotates with the stay). Conventional furlers are another. My furler is factory (Hood) and is toggled. Creating a swivel that would turn freely under a full forestay load and endure would be an engineering marvel.

(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by pdqaltair; 05-27-2011 at 07:33 AM.
pdqaltair is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #10 of 15 Old 05-27-2011
Senior Member
 
catamount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gulf of Maine
Posts: 599
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 13
 
FWIW, my headstay is rod, but PDQ does raise a good point -- if your headstay is wire rope, inserting a swivel into the stay could cause more problems than it is supposed to solve. But I still don't understand the problem your surveyor seems to think is an issue -- furlers are designed so that the foil rotates around the stay on a bearing - the stay itself doesn't rotate. I suppose if the bearings were to seize up, that might be a problem but I suspect you just would not be able to furl (or unfurl) the sail. Unless you've put your furling line on an electric winch and are just not paying attention, it's hard to imagine generating a enough torque that you could shear off your headstay...

Peterson 34 GREYHAWK, West Boothbay Harbor, Maine

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, a new voice for ocean conservation
catamount is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Schaefer Furling System no Extrusions ukrsindicat Gear & Maintenance 7 08-13-2011 06:47 PM
Schaefer ST-2000 Furling sailjunkie General Discussion (sailing related) 3 03-06-2010 12:34 PM
1 1/4" Clamp for toggle jaw GBurton Gear & Maintenance 0 02-15-2009 10:04 PM
Replace swage fittings and add a toggle? dgr Gear & Maintenance 9 06-17-2008 01:15 PM
Chainplate toggle mismatch aflanigan Gear & Maintenance 8 05-17-2003 01:35 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome