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  #11  
Old 07-26-2011
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Thanks for all your comments. You have confused me even more... not your fault. All your comments make sense, maybe too much sense.

I do love working on our sailboat and previously owned sailboats. Please, don't think that I want to turn a profit if I sell her, I just don't want to sink excessive costs and more importantly, excessive time, time that was taken away from my family, work and sailing. Working on sailboats is one thing but spending every extra time you have to get her ready, is another thing. I am thinking, there are a handful of sailboats, maybe only 5 to 10 years newer (our P35 is 73'), but with the interior layout and the upgrades already completed, or was included in the original design of the sailboat. I can make all these changes to our current sailboat with minimum costs but again, a lot of time. But what it lacks, it gains in other areas. NO hit against Hunters but we were sailing in a ASA course last month and the instructor's sailboat was a 2010 31 Hunter, really nice and motored on a dime (unlike our P35) but everytime a wake came our way, we bounced around and when she sailed, it seem like no matter how we fine tune the trim, it didn't matter much. Our P35, has a heavy displacement and cuts through the waves like nothing, sails so smooth and trims really nice.

I obviously need to put more thought into this, continue making some upgrades and perhaps make a decision this Fall.
Thanks Again.
Patrick
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  #12  
Old 07-26-2011
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There is one other, albeit relatively minor, issue. If you really know your current boat inside and out, and enjoy working on her, it will be much easier to do so without trading up. The new girl will require years of courting and all require work.
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  #13  
Old 07-26-2011
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Another important choice is "choosing your battles". Certainly, it's not wise to plan on redesigning an older boat or working toward making it perform differently from it's design. I like things to look nice on my 1973 ketch, but my primary tasks are for function,- pretty always comes in second. I also work toward ease of function. As I age with my boat, I'm working toward the "geriatric vessel" that will allow be to stay aboard in the future. My first liveaboard boat had no windlass, no bimini, no refrigeration, no air conditioning and I coundn't stand up straight inside the cabin. Amazingly, my wife was with me then as she is now, but we couldn't live that way now like we did forty years ago. We've reached a balance in retrofiting. We're keeping up with our needs and our needs change over the years. Take care and joy, Aythya crew
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Old 07-26-2011
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Some of this will come down to IMHO, what are the upgrades you want to do? ie change the floorplan......buy a new boat! If it is replace the cushions because the color, foam etc is faded, worn out etc. replace the cushions, who or what is to say that the next boat will not need the same thing.

If the varnish or equal is worn, not shiny, much easier to do this yourself. Next boat, could have the same issue. I could probably say the same thing about other boat parts, somewhere along the line, standing rigging needs replacing, as does running rigging etc.

Some things like running rigging is nice to replace/redesign if you will to a degree, as you can then make changes to what and how you want to the lines to run and where. Color coding also is nice to do.

I've frankly probably redone most of y 25 yr olds boat over the last 5 yrs of ownership, from revarnishing the interior, new cushions, redoing the foam backed vinyl hull/cabin top liner etc. It has cost a few $$$, but I am still into it less than a new boat. Some things came with the boat, that would have cost me any how......

In the end, the boat will go another 5-10 yrs with out too much redoing. I do need to budget in the next few years new standing rigging and another mast step fix that a couple of other local boats have had to do. Whether or not you want to call what I have done retrofitting, or what.....that is another story. Some of the stuff, I probably would have done even if a new one, ie color coding the running rigging, new laminate sails vs dacrons that come with the boat etc. So in a sense, old worked out just as well. Next time if $$$ are available, maybe new.......

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Old 07-26-2011
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Here is another way of looking at it.
A 1980 Catalina 30 in very good shape goes for maybe 15,000 probably less. A new Catalina 309 goes for maybe 120,000 fitted out.
Round numbers you are getting the 30 year old boat for 10% of new cost.
If you start upgrading the 1980 you will be putting 100% new cost.
So in a sense the 1980 boat lets you convert dollars into dimes.
And in truth is is even worse than that because there is an upper limited as to what you can get for any boat, (classic vintage boat excepted) no matter how much you put in it.

Back to that 1980 Catalina 30 for example. If you upgraded every system, new engine, new electric, electronics, tanks sails and it was a 100,000 refit you would be lucky to get 25,000 maybe only 20,000 because there is a perceived maximum value for an old boat. No matter how much you do there is something you didn't do.

Now the conversion of dollars to dimes is not necessary bad.
  • If the conversion happens over a few years and you get to sail the boat for the duration.
  • If the total dollars converted doesn't seem that bad each year. A lot of people just pick a number and do projects that approach that number every year. For example if you put in 5,000 every year for 10 years that's a lot of money total but the boat will be in fantastic shape and you had a whole decade of enjoyment.

Following the dollars to dimes formula some folks figure they are better off buying the most expensive boat you can find.
If your the guy buying the above 1980 Catalina 30 for let's say 23,500 you may be able to sail for 10 years with a minimal extra investment.
Unless of course you find out the PO made some bad mistakes which they almost always do, sail-net members excepted.

New motto: Buy a sailboat convert dollars to dimes

Last edited by davidpm; 07-26-2011 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 07-26-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
............................A 1980 Catalina 30 in very good shape goes for maybe 15,000 probably less. A new Catalina 309 goes for maybe 120,000 fitted out....................
Back to that 1980 Catalina 30 for example. If you upgraded every system, new engine, new electric, electronics, tanks sails and it was a 100,000 refit.............
This is where I get lost in your scenario. I see the new engine as the biggest expense at around ten grand; you can do the sails for 6K, new electronics and wiring for 4K and the tanks for 2k tops. Yes all for ca 22 thousand, but lets double it just for kicks,- that's 44K plus the 15K purchase for less than half of the new boat. I'll never buy a new car and I'll never buy a new boat. Simple math tells me I have no need to toss away all that money when I can get the same value for half the price. Sure, I'm one that does a lot of "do it yourself" work and someone that can't use simple tools and complete simple pumbing and wiring may need to spend the extra sixty thousand dollars. Nobody can pay the 120K for the new boat and expect to get their money back ever. Anybody can buy a 15K boat and with some skills, loose money too. ....but not as much! Take care and joy, Aythya crew
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Old 07-27-2011
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The other part of the above examples is that even if you pay the 120k for the new boat, in ten years of use it will need a refit so you have to add that to the original cost as well. So to compare apples to apples that 120 will actually be closer to 160, and it will be worth how much? There's just no free lunch when it comes to boats.
I think the biggest decision regarding refits is time, not money. I've done major refits on three boats now, and the money isn't what I remember being the hard part (and I didn't have much spare change then), it was the time. Time away from family, time away from work/business, time away from sailing and enjoying the boat with the family. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy working on boats and still do almost all of my own work, and I have learned a hell of a lot over the years by doing these refits which gives me the confidence that I could fix almost anything that came along. But, there are limits. The second refit came dangerously close to souring me on boating all together because I got into a situation where I didn't have a choice but to finish what I'd started and it took eons (or so it seemed at the time) to complete it which became pretty stressful with one setback after another (yes, it's true, not all boat projects go smoothly:-)). If you are staring at a long list of projects that you know (there will be many others you don't know about yet) you will have to do to be happy with the boat, make the best honest (consult with people that have done it and use their hours whenever possible) estimate of how long you think it will all take and then quadruple it (historically this is how long my projects have actually taken, you may be lucky and it will only be 3X). If you are not willing, or able, to devote that much time and effort (on top of the cost), think seriously about selling and buying a boat that is already in "sail away" shape (your family will thank you). After three refits I realize that I am an addict and there is no hope for me, but if my story can help others...
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Last edited by jrd22; 07-27-2011 at 01:15 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07-27-2011
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John,
Although I do enjoy working on our sailboats in the past but there is a limit of time and reasonable amount of money you want to spend. But you're right, most of it is the time to do all the projects and how it takes away from your family, work, vacations, sailing, spare time, etc... And it seems that even the simple projects takes a few hours.
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Old 07-27-2011
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After reading through this post again, I'm thinking that the term "refit" has two different interpretations with two different outcomes:

Refit- The owner renews the function of his older vessel by completing tasks and installing purchased equipment.

Refit- The owner presents a list of needs to a boat yard that completes the tasks and installs the equipment

These are very different refits! Take care and joy, Aythya crew
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Old 07-27-2011
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Best values in boats are always older vessels that *SOMEONE ELSE* has done a full, quality, *YARD* refit on...and then has to get rid of the boat due to one the dreaded 3 "Ds"....Death, Disease, Divorce.
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