wax powered stove - Page 2 - SailNet Community
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 21 Old 11-16-2011
me at 67!
 
deniseO30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bristol pa
Posts: 6,970
Thanks: 55
Thanked 126 Times in 115 Posts
Rep Power: 10
   
The OP has this same thread on sailboat owners, I don't see that wax is going to be the fuel of choice for anyone but back packers. The type of burner/generator is about the same as needed to burn diesel. although in his case it would melt the wax, pressurize the liquid enough to be superheated into a gas when it enters the generator tube, hot plate, or other type super heating device. The residue is sure to be a problem.

Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My last project!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


My boat is sold!
deniseO30 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 21 Old 11-17-2011 Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Thank you all for the responses. I understand your concerns about soot and residue. That will definitely be taken into consideration.

To address some other concerns, our stove is not just a glorified candle, it is a legitimate stove that is powered by wax. The way it burns, it actually burns significantly hotter than acohol.

One of the reasons we were thinking about targeting sailboats is because of the safety factor. Wax will not just light. If you put a flame to wax it just melts. Our stove is easy to extinguish, and we feel the added safety of a fuel that cannot burn unless it is in our stove is a benefit that you all would be happy to have.

Given this information would any of you consider the use of the stove? Especially if we found a way to limit soot?
lehigh is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #13 of 21 Old 11-17-2011
ASA and PSIA Instructor
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,588
Thanks: 7
Thanked 25 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 16
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lehigh View Post
...
Given this information would any of you consider the use of the stove? Especially if we found a way to limit soot?
No. As other posters have said, you aren't proposing to solve a problem of concern to sailors, while you create some new ones. Propane/CNG is a wonderful cooking solution, instant on/off and great heat. Alcohol, less wonderful, but manageable.

I did the paraffin stoves a scout too, it was fun and not bad for an overnight, but a pretty dumb idea for boating. I guess if were to ever go cruising on my windsurfer, I might put one in my backpack.

Certified...in several regards...
sailingfool is online now  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #14 of 21 Old 11-17-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 989
Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Assuming, heat output, safety, and combustion by products items have been resolved, please address fuel availability.

Diesel, propane and to a lesser extent kerosene are available in many locations, would I be able to go to a gas station or hardware store and pick up a generic canister of fuel wax and at a price comparable to other fuels?

1970 Havsfidra 20 by Fisksatra
On the Delaware River at Fox Grove Marina Essington PA
Ulladh is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #15 of 21 Old 11-17-2011
Senior Member
 
AdamLein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: SF Bay area
Posts: 1,924
Thanks: 6
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
There are a lot of disparagers but it seems that the product is intended to compete with alcohol stoves. Some people like unpressurized alcohol stoves for the safety and simplicity, but are sad that alcohol doesn't burn as hot as other fuels and usually involves putting more water vapor into the cabin. Another issue is that alcohol is a comparatively expensive fuel.

If this new stove were as simple and safe as unpressurized alcohol, with similarly available fuel, but burned hotter and with less humidity, and had cheaper fuel, then it beats unpressurized alcohol.

If the product was intended to compete with pressurized alcohol, that's probably a non-starter. Pressurized alcohol is plenty hot, but nobody uses it because of the danger and difficulty in starting, so this stove would have to promise that it doesn't have the same danger and difficulty of starting. Basically, people who want pressure will use CNG/LPG, and people who don't will used unpressurized alcohol, so that's what you have to compete with.

s/v Laelia - 1978 Pearson 365 ketch
s/v Essorant - 1972 Catalina 27
AdamLein is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #16 of 21 Old 11-17-2011
Senior Slacker
 
SlowButSteady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,223
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamLein View Post
... Some people like unpressurized alcohol stoves for the safety and simplicity, but are sad that alcohol doesn't burn as hot as other fuels ...
The real issue is how much power (energy/time) a burner produces. By this measure, non-pressurized ethanol stoves are within about 10% of most marine propane stoves (6800 btu verses 7500 btu); although some propane stoves do have larger burners (~10,000 btu).


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamLein View Post
... and usually involves putting more water vapor into the cabin. ...
An oft-repeated exaggeration. Propane produces about 555 kJ of heat per mol water vapor produced, while ethanol produces about 457 kJ of heat per mol water vapor; about a 21% difference. Add in the water dissolved in the ethanol (ethanol is never completely water free) and the difference is maybe 30%. In other words, not enough to get too excited about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamLein View Post
... Another issue is that alcohol is a comparatively expensive fuel.
True, but you don't need to buy and maintain propane tanks, regulator(s), hoses, vapor sniffers, et cetera. You might also be able to get a bit of a break on your boat insurance. Unless you are burning an awful lot of fuel every year, it would take quite some time to make up the difference. In any case, any added expense is worth the peace of mind, IMHO.

Never forget them. Do something to prevent it from happening again.
Charlotte Bacon, Daniel Barden, Rachel Davino, Olivia Josephine Gay, Ana M. Marquez-Greene, Dylan Hockley, Dawn Hochsprung, Madeleine F. Hsu, Catherine V. Hubbard, Chase Kowalski, Jesse Lewis, James Mattioli , Grace McDonnell, Anne Marie Murphy, Emilie Parker, Jack Pinto, Noah Pozner, Caroline Previdi, Jessica Rekos, Avielle Richman, Lauren Rousseau, Mary Sherlach, Victoria Soto, Benjamin Wheeler, Allison N. Wyatt
SlowButSteady is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #17 of 21 Old 11-17-2011
Senior Member
 
OPossumTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Alvin, Texas
Posts: 182
Thanks: 30
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lehigh View Post
Thank you all for the responses. I understand your concerns about soot and residue. That will definitely be taken into consideration.

To address some other concerns, our stove is not just a glorified candle, it is a legitimate stove that is powered by wax. The way it burns, it actually burns significantly hotter than acohol.

One of the reasons we were thinking about targeting sailboats is because of the safety factor. Wax will not just light. If you put a flame to wax it just melts. Our stove is easy to extinguish, and we feel the added safety of a fuel that cannot burn unless it is in our stove is a benefit that you all would be happy to have.

Given this information would any of you consider the use of the stove? Especially if we found a way to limit soot?
Good burner design will go a long way to reducing the soot problem.

One of the bigger problems as I see it is storage of wax of what ever sort in tropical climates. Granted that the fuel is relatively stable, it would have to be reduced to convenient portion sizes for use in the stove. When wax is exposed to tropical temperatures, it tends to, well, melt. This can result in your fuel supply becoming a runny mess if it is not contained or a single lump if it is contained. So, unless it is stored within the container from which it will be used melting could cause several problems.

There are materials which can be used to raise the melting point which could be helpful, but these would add cost to the fuel.

I don't mean to discourage you but to warn you of a problem which you may not have considered. A problem which could cause a serious hitch in your product design. If the fuel is stored in a closed container from which it will be used, this problem may be avoided. Take this as an offer of a suggestion for the fuel storage problem's solution.

I can't help with the burner design. That is far from my area.

Have FUN!
O'
OPossumTX is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #18 of 21 Old 11-17-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 11,230
Thanks: 46
Thanked 238 Times in 223 Posts
Rep Power: 7
   
The number one cause of fires on a boat is electrical.... By far. 12 volt is worst.

As zealous as some get about accelerants, they just are not as risky as they are made out to be. Caution and proper procedure are required and accidents do happen. Be careful.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #19 of 21 Old 11-17-2011
Senior Member
 
neverknow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Indiana
Posts: 299
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 5
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lehigh View Post
Hey all,
I'm a student at Lehigh university and for a group project we are working on a sailing stove that runs on wax. It is very similar to an alcohol stove, but instead of burning alcohol it burns wax.

I am trying to find out if there is any interest from the sailing community in this type of product. I know it sounds weird, but I'm wondering if you can tell me if you would either be really excited by it, might be willing to try it, or even just think it is a terrible idea. Any input is welcome.

If you have an alcohol stove I would especially appreciate any input, what you like about your alcohol stove, what you would like to see improved. All information is helpful. Thanks!
After reading your OP I don't understand why so many are putting you down for trying something new. Don't listen to these ppl who say don't reinvent the mouse trap. Go ahead with your project and I for one hope to see you at the Sail Boat show in Annapolis.

it just a school project. You never know it might catch on.
neverknow is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #20 of 21 Old 11-17-2011
Senior Member
 
AdamLein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: SF Bay area
Posts: 1,924
Thanks: 6
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
You don't need to convince me! I have a two-burner Cookmate and am satisfied with it. Not enamored, just satisfied. It was inexpensive, I don't overnight very much so we really spend pennies on fuel every year, and it does cook my food. I wish it would cook it a little faster. And I have noticed condensation after using it, but I don't have anything to compare it to besides a pressurized kerosene stove

So that's an issue. It's nice that you have some numbers, but what does that translate to in terms of user experience? At that btu ratio it's gonna take at least 9% longer to cook food, not accounting for the fact that your food doesn't radiate heat slower when you use alcohol. Similarly, what does that 21% difference in heat/water ratio translate to in terms of lost heat when cooking, and discomfort and mildew growth in the cabin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowButSteady View Post
The real issue is how much power (energy/time) a burner produces. By this measure, non-pressurized ethanol stoves are within about 10% of most marine propane stoves (6800 btu verses 7500 btu); although some propane stoves do have larger burners (~10,000 btu).

An oft-repeated exaggeration. Propane produces about 555 kJ of heat per mol water vapor produced, while ethanol produces about 457 kJ of heat per mol water vapor; about a 21% difference. Add in the water dissolved in the ethanol (ethanol is never completely water free) and the difference is maybe 30%. In other words, not enough to get too excited about.

True, but you don't need to buy and maintain propane tanks, regulator(s), hoses, vapor sniffers, et cetera. You might also be able to get a bit of a break on your boat insurance. Unless you are burning an awful lot of fuel every year, it would take quite some time to make up the difference. In any case, any added expense is worth the peace of mind, IMHO.

s/v Laelia - 1978 Pearson 365 ketch
s/v Essorant - 1972 Catalina 27
AdamLein is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Tags
alcohol , stove , wax

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electric Powered Newport 30 mgunning Newport 1 12-18-2010 11:30 AM
solar powered vent Walt352 Gear & Maintenance 15 11-20-2010 06:38 PM
Wave Powered !! Freesail99 General Discussion (sailing related) 7 07-14-2008 12:10 AM
gas powered liveaboards... razorseal Living Aboard 11 04-12-2006 02:12 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome