J24 Bilge Cracks - Page 3 - SailNet Community
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post #21 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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Thanks for the replies egard. I am planning on starting this project some time soon. The issue is with it being cold here in MD. I know at certain temps the epoxy turns to viscus and doesn't harden correctly.

Does any one have any images of the job being done? I've seen just about all there is to see on the internet in relation to this job. None of the ones people have images of had soles and verm that looks like mine to start. Besides the image above from MNKY.

Also when I cut the sole out is a circular saw the best tool? I wonder if a good dremmel would work to make a better looking cut?
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post #22 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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You guys really should do a search on lost keels on j-boats over at sailinganarchy. There have been several incidents over the past few years. Here are a couple of the threads:

J80 Loses Keel - Sailing Anarchy Forums

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...pic=73728&st=0

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...pic=68245&st=0

And then here's one I started here a while back - it's got some great stuff:

What's up with the J80 keels?


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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-13-2011 at 10:12 AM.
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post #23 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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2 J80s out of a production run of over 1000

NO J24s that i have ever heard of

There have been issues with 105s and 109s BUT none fell off just repiars and are 1970 C&C 35 has required plenty of glass work to keep the keel ON

There are sure a heck far more Catalinas in many different sizes with rotten Plywood keel sumps amd keel issues

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post #24 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
2 J80s out of a production run of over 1000

NO J24s that i have ever heard of

There have been issues with 105s and 109s BUT none fell off just repiars and are 1970 C&C 35 has required plenty of glass work to keep the keel ON

There are sure a heck far more Catalinas in many different sizes with rotten Plywood keel sumps amd keel issues
I'm not passing judgement - I'm just pointing out that there have been quite a few stories about J-Boats and keel issues over the past couple of years. This seems to be another one.


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post #25 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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SO whats the issue ? that a 1979 J24 hull needs a repiar kit it was suppose to have gotten 20 years ago and the keel is still THERE ?

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post #26 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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SO whats the issue ? that a 1979 J24 hull needs a repiar kit it was suppose to have gotten 20 years ago and the keel is still THERE ?
I guess so.


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post #27 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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papas-
A circular saw will probably give you a straighter cut, which may look better than a wobbly thin slice. There are "router" and "tile grouting" heads for the Dremels, using one of those as a guide would probably let you get a nice straight cut with it.
Check the spec for the specific epoxy you plan to use, IIRC 45F is about the lowest any of them go but most will take forever to set way before it gets that cold. A heat lamp might get you past that.
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post #28 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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smackdaddy, J's are mainly racing boats and racing boats go rockhopping all the time. UNLESS a boat has only had one owner since it was splashed, you can't ever be sure that someone hasn't grounded it and damaged the keel attachment.

So losing a keel? When you don't know if it ever was abused? Come on now, that's like asking a six year old "Who punched you out?" when they lose a kiddie tooth. Simply uncalled-for.
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post #29 of 32 Old 12-13-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
smackdaddy, J's are mainly racing boats and racing boats go rockhopping all the time. UNLESS a boat has only had one owner since it was splashed, you can't ever be sure that someone hasn't grounded it and damaged the keel attachment.

So losing a keel? When you don't know if it ever was abused? Come on now, that's like asking a six year old "Who punched you out?" when they lose a kiddie tooth. Simply uncalled-for.
I promise that I've never punched a six year old - at least not hard enough to knock out his tooth. I have no shitzu in the J-Boat hunt...I'm just posting the stories I've come across about keel problems with J-Boats.

Here's a post from Tom from that SN thread I linked to above - he says it better that I can:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post


J105



J120



A repiar job

In the past starting with the J24 they have sent out field repiar teams or made the kits nessary to beefup there many weak keel sumps

The first problem was the J24 with the Mushy Vermiculite Problem and i guess its allways been quite because they have taken care of the problems on the down low

From what i read from the first J80 owner to have lost the keel they are throwing him under the bus as well as his insurance company

He has had independent work done to prove the boat was sound before the keel was lost so it still not resolved 1 year later


"OK, here's the story on J80 #21, Skillagalee, since the crash. We had a policy for $25,000 (plus liablility) with International Marine Underwriters, NY, since 1994 when we purchased the boat. Many happy years sailing and racing, nothing more extreme than occasional downwind broaching. Then the keel sump was ripped out and the boat sank.

First survey done almost immediately, paid for by insurance company, which stated "delamination due to fatigue"; insurer got back to say, sorry, we will not pay any loss due to 1) wear and tear, delamination, 2) "your failure to maintain the yacht". We responded with maintenance/yard receipts totaling $28,168. over last five years, not including new sails or gear. They confirmed exclusion, and offered insight that 'sailing is an expensive sport'. I guess it is.

The hull was then transported to RI by J-Boats (at their cost) and another survey done (also at their cost). This resulted in bold statement quoted in prior SA post regarding "longitudinal crazing", supposedly present for substantial time (without my or my high priced yard guy noticing it, despite regular inspection), and keel floor tabbing delamination. In short: no ammunition with insurer.

Act Three: hired my own surveyor. Believe it or not, I just received his report on Monday. He performed core samples in area of keel, and found 1) "fiberglass and balsa core to be perfectly intact showing no sign of water intrusion and no delamination between inner and outer laminates", and 2) very low moisture detected by Tramix moisture meter anywhere in hull. Bottom line: "catastrophic fiberglass failure due to rapid athwart ship pressure from two high speed jibes that accidently occurred in heavy wind... THIS LOSS WAS NOT DUE TO NEGLECT OR LONG TERM DELAMINATION.

So, now another incident, more harrowing and thank god without loss of life or limb. Does this affect my understanding of failure and potentially my case? I think so, and my wife is on the war path. It does not sour me on J-Boats, with whom I've had a positive experience (other than that one time...) including a call yesterday to make sure we're still friends. But I hope it leads to a settlement in arbitration which would allow me to buy a boat and get back on the water."


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smack, his bottom line appears to be: "catastrophic fiberglass failure due to rapid athwart ship pressure from two high speed jibes that accidently occurred in heavy wind... THIS LOSS WAS NOT DUE TO NEGLECT OR LONG TERM DELAMINATION."

With three surveyors each giving a different and firm opinion, you might as well ask Magic8Ball what happened. One boat doesn't indicate a problem, could be someone whacked the keel, could be a material defect (bad epoxy) that took 30 years to show up. Unlikely to be a design defect since "the fleet" hasn't had dozens of them.

WRT the J/24s "in the past" and "vermiculite" make it sound like old history. Was that the first design, subsequently modified? Or only affecting boats that came out of one plant? Since the construction was licensed out to MANY makers around the globe. I don't see a smoking gun there. OTOH "Captain Crunch" is/was a real J/24 and that seems perfectly typical of the usual J/24 owner's sailing style. The boats are sailed aggressively.

Maybe you've heard the saying about racing boats? If nothing breaks, the boat was built too heavy, too slow.

Fine line between building it well enough to last the race, and building it too frail to win. Heck, even Indy car engines used to be designed to blow up after 700 miles. 500 for the race, 100 for breakin, 100 as a safety margin. 700 miles, versus 1/4 million for a regular engine.
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