Resources for standard parts and equipment - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 
  #1  
Old 01-01-2012
Dean101's Avatar
Life is a wild ride!
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 394
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Dean101 is on a distinguished road
Question Resources for standard parts and equipment

I'm trying to create detailed maintenance and operating cost sheets for several boats I'm interested in. Does anyone know of a website or other resource where I can find specific information on stock installations for older boats whose manufacturers are out of business? I'm hoping I won't have to locate owners manuals for this type of info and I haven't yet found anything on Google.

At this point I'm mainly interested in comparing material costs such as standing and running rigging, paint, ground tackle, and other hardware such as winches, blocks, and even sails specifics. I really don't know how to go about finding out wire/line diameter and length, square footages, winch size, etc. to use in figuring replacement costs.

Since even boats of similar size have widely varying degrees of maintenance associated with them, my intent is to have a sheet of specifics for each boat as I fine tune my list of prospective buys. Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 01-01-2012
Stu Jackson's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 791
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 14
Stu Jackson is on a distinguished road
There really is no "Holy Grail" for the information you're seeking. You have to go to each boat, try to find the particulars and then make up your own.

One handy reference source I've seen is this one: PDF Marine Library

Then, if it's not there, search on each boat, and try to find the manuals, which would (should, but maybe not) have the rigging details.
__________________
Stu Jackson, C34, 1986, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 01-01-2012
Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,301
Thanks: 3
Thanked 68 Times in 60 Posts
Rep Power: 9
killarney_sailor is on a distinguished road
If you are looking at boats that essentially the same (displacement, sail area come to mind) then costs will be the same - ground tackle, winch upgrades, blocks, etc. If there is a difference in standing rigging diameter for similar boats that might tell you something useful. I find the West Marine catalog a great tool to have - even if end up buying for somewhere else it gives you a good starting point on prices.

It should be pretty easy to get down to two or three boats and then it is a matter of getting down to a more specific upgrade cost comparison. Makes little sense to do it for a huge range of boats unless you like that sort of thing.
__________________
Finished the circumnavigation in early February in Grenada. Have to work on a book project for the next several months so the boat will be waiting for next year.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 01-01-2012
Dean101's Avatar
Life is a wild ride!
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 394
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Dean101 is on a distinguished road
Stu, that was a good website. I only wish more of it was in English. I changed the language to English but most of the PDF's were in Spanish. I wonder if there is such a site with English PDF's?

Killarney, I will only be doing this for a very short list of possibles. I'm still trying to decide on an ideal size boat as well as explore the upkeep differences between ketch and cutter rigs. It's the specifics that get me. For instance, a CT 41 displaces 28,000 lbs, an Allied Mistress 39 - 20,000 lbs with the Princess 36 at 14,400, a Union 36 - 22,000 lbs, and a Southern Cross 35 coming in at 17,700 lbs. These are a few of the boats I've been looking at and with only 6 feet of difference between their lengths there is a large difference in their displacements. I know that ground tackle is pretty much selected according to displacement weight but I'm thinking (I could be totally wrong here) that rigging diameter depends on the rigs' size and type. Also, I'm not sure on the difference in the size of the winches between a cutter and a ketch rig.

My Endeavour 32 displaced 11,700 lbs but that is the largest boat I've owned or sailed on so I have no experience to base a larger boat on. I just don't know any specific measurements for these boats in order to use a catalogue to price materials and finding these specifics is proving to be a challenge. If I can find a relatively easy way of finding the info I can then write it down as I find it in my notebook so I only have to search once. I still have plenty of time before I'll be ready to buy to research. Besides, since I don't have a boat other than my kayak right now, I find it kinda fun to look, drool, and learn!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 01-01-2012
Maine Sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 5,362
Thanks: 11
Thanked 122 Times in 90 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice
Dean,

Your quest for this data is like a dog chasing it's tail. Kind of circular and really not going to give you a "realistic" number as there are soooooo many other items that can cost huge $$.

You are looking at some old boats with some older systems they will ALL cost a significant sum to own, maintain and make safe and fit if you're not focusing on only boats that have already had all this work done..

You don't even want to guess what a teak deck will cost to fix, or wet decks.... A ketch or yawl rig will always cost more to maintain than a sloop or cutter. Winches last nearly indefinitely and all but the oddest winches can be disassembled and greased in about 40 minutes per. If you can live without self tailing winches than your fine but a boat I'd be focusing on would have had the PO already upgrade them to self tailers.

The best advice I can give is to ALWAYS buy the best condition boat you can. Only focus on vessels with MASSIVE amounts of upgrading done by a previous owner. Do not reward the a lazy seller by buying his or her unmaintained junk. The "deal" is most often not a "deal" at all it can very often be a never ending $$$ pit. Buying a boat that is in tip top Bristol condition, by FAR, will cost you less than thinking you can beat the odds and "fix it up" for less.

Tell your broker you will only look at boats in the top 2%, condition & maintenance wise. Put this criteria on paper and define what this means. If he sends you on goose chases to boats with tattered sails, dirty bilges, olde rigging, tired engines, chalky top sides, moldy interiors etc. etc. FIND A NEW BROKER! On boats of this vintage avoid teak decks at all costs, if you value your money...

Even when buying a "two percenter" I still set aside 20-30% of purchase price for first year upgrades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
At this point I'm mainly interested in comparing material costs such as standing and running rigging, paint, ground tackle, and other hardware such as winches, blocks, and even sails specifics. I really don't know how to go about finding out wire/line diameter and length, square footages, winch size, etc. to use in figuring replacement costs.
On boats of this age these items are a small portion of the expenses necessary to get them in safe shape if you're not being a discriminating buyer.. Electrical systems on these boats should also be considered as should chain plates, engine, decks etc. etc.. A boat of this vintage with original wiring is a SCARY thought.. 55% of boat fires are electrical in nature and the marine environment is not kind to electrical systems....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
Since even boats of similar size have widely varying degrees of maintenance associated with them, my intent is to have a sheet of specifics for each boat as I fine tune my list of prospective buys. Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
They don't have to have varying degrees if you limit your search to boats that have ALREADY had this work done. These two percenters are out there but you need to be ready to pounce and not hesitate when they come up, as they go fast, even in a bad economy. Discriminating buyers, who know what they want, are out there waiting for them. These boats ALWAYS cost you less even though the purchase price may be 20% higher than a sister ship that is in the 50th percentile of condition.

Be patient, define your standards, and find a broker who can locate what you want a not send you on "junk" viewings..

This is just an example of defining what you want for a broker..

Dear Broker,

Vessel Type
We are looking for a full keel CCA type cruiser between 36 & 42 feet with a budget of XXX. I feel this budget is reasonable but would like to sit with you and examine some SoldBoats.com data to be sure we are in-line with our expectations.

The vessel we are looking for should be well built and will not include XXXX, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX and XXXXXX brands. The prospective vessel needs to be in the top 2-3% of condition for boats of her vintage. The proverbial "needle in the haystack" that you have ten customers waiting for. We would prefer a cutter but if the right ketch or yawl came along we would certainly consider it.

Rigging, Canvas, Sails
Systems such as standing rigging, sails, running rigging & canvas shall all be no more than 5 years old with documented receipts.

Engine & Mechanical
The engine will be in top condition preferably re-built, with adequate documentation, or repowered. The engine room will be clean and the engine will exhibit no oil leaking or excessive oil consumption. Fuel tanks will be clean and have records of fuel polishing, new tanks or tank cleanings. The tanks will preferably have inspection ports.

The electrical system shall be up to date and be 100% safe and meet as many of today's current safety standards as possible for a boat of this vintage. The vessel with preferably have been re-wired or partially rewired within the last 10 years. The LPG and plumbing systems will also be up to date and meet current safety standards. The vessel will preferably include an upgraded alternator and charging systems and the battery banks within three years old. We would prefer the boat to have solar, wind or both but this is not a deal breaker just a "nice to have".

Refrigeration system is a must and will be in 100% working order with records to document maintenance. An engine driven system is preferred but not a deal breaker.

Seacocks and below water fittings will be well maintained and preferably recent. Seacocks should be open ocean ready and will ideally be proper flanged/bolted seacocks. Below waterline hoses will be within 5-7 years. Backing plates for seacoks will not be "soggy".

Electronics
The electronics will ideally be less than 5 years old and include wind, depth, speed, VHF, EPIRB, autopilot, GPS/Plotter and Radar. Radar overlay preferred as are helm mounted electronics but not a deal breaker if not.

The vessel will come with a full compliment of equipment, engine and systems spares, multiple ground tackle systems etc. etc..

Hull/Deck & Under Body
The hull deck and under body will be in top condition. If Awlgripped or painted the hull will be shiny and not exhibit scratching, gouges or other areas of peeling or blistering. If the vessel is painted the paint will be less than 6 years old. If gelcoat the gelcoat shall be in top condition shiny and presentable beyond 97% of her peers. The underbody will have documentation of being paint peeled, examined for osmisis & ultimately will have been barrier coated. Bottom paint will be smooth and exhibit no peeling or delamination or flaking from the substrate. The rudder will be dry and safe for passage making. We will not look at boats with a cored hull below the waterline. We will not look at or consider boats with teak decks or wet decks. Exterior teak will be maintained to top standards and be in very good shape.

The boat will have documentation of deck hardware rebedding and the deck will be dry. It will not have deck leaks from deck hardware.

Running gear will be in perfect running condition with a tight cutlass bearing, no vibration & good prop. The prop & under body metals shall not exhibit any signs of dezincification of demetalization from corrosion.

Interior

The interior will be clean and not stink like a musty boat. Compartments, bilges and storage lockers will be clean and free of mold and mildew. Cushions will be recent and preferably within 5-7 years. Fabric will not be "outlandish" and will be of traditional boat colors. If the interior is varnished the varnish will be in good condition. If the interior is rubbed oil the teak or mahogany will not exhibit staining or mold issues. The cabin sole will preferably be varnish or polyurethane. The port lights & hatches will be free of leaks and the glass or acrylic will be free of fogging or crazing. The cabin will not have any active deck leaks.


We know this is a tough find but we are patient buyers for the right boat. If you know of this boat, and it is not for sale, I would fully expect you to investigate it anyway. Many boats are "for sale" even when not technically listed.

If you can find us a boat that fits our criteria you will be rewarded with an easy no-financing required transaction, a speedy survey and a cash bonus/tip, beyond your commission, upon closing. We are picky & discriminating buyers but also very reasonable and we look forward to working with you.

Please, above all else, don't waste our time sending us on wild goose chases to view sloppy ill maintained vessels. If you don't know the boat, or have not personally been on it, please be honest with us up front. We love honesty beyond anything else!

Blah, blah blah...


Setting standards of communication up front goes a long way to a good buying experience. You need to decide what your standards will be as this is just a short guide similar to what I communicate when buying......
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 01-01-2012 at 08:16 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 01-01-2012
Dean101's Avatar
Life is a wild ride!
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 394
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Dean101 is on a distinguished road
WOW!!! Maine, when I'm ready to start contacting brokers and sellers I may decide to make you the "go-to" guy for all my correspondence! That was one hell of a write-up! You expressed a common piece of advice that I have actually already taken to heart. DON'T BUY A FIXER-UPPER! No, I intend to be very strict with myself during the shopping and purchasing phase of my plans. Even though I'm looking at older boats, I'm not going to settle for a cheap piece of crap. I'm not too concerned with what I'll call "extra's" such as a turbocharged, dual-redundant, totally integrated nav/com/monitoring/entertainment system complete with satelite wifi and wireless hard drives. I fully expect to spend some money changing things to suit my personal tastes. I am, however, concerned with the integrity of the hull, deck, rig, sails and motor, electrical, plumbing, and basic systems. I'm hoping to find a surveyor experienced with the boat I intend to buy to do the survey and have already decided to have another qualified person(s) check the electrical systems and engine.

I'm not looking for the specific information on these boats so much for upgrading a worn out boat as I am for getting an idea of costs for upkeep and repairs AFTER I purchase. I definitely want major items such as leaking/soggy decks, outdated wiring, or rotten iron tankage to have been addressed by the PO. I've heard from many sources about how upkeep costs rise exponentially with boat size so I'm trying to get an idea of just what I can expect depending on what boat I finally choose. I'm sure that replacing the rigging on a ketch will cost more than a cutter of the same size but I want to see figures so that I can decide whether or not the extra expense would be prohibitive to me. I've learned the lesson that all boats are a floating compromise. This is simply a means to help me find that comfortable compromise between the size of my boat, the cost of upkeep, and how it will all fit into my overall plan. I don't want to get into something over my head if you know what I mean.

Last edited by Dean101; 01-01-2012 at 10:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 01-01-2012
davidpm's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,732
Thanks: 191
Thanked 45 Times in 38 Posts
Rep Power: 7
davidpm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post

If you can find us a boat that fits our criteria you will be rewarded with an easy no-financing required transaction, a speedy survey and a cash bonus/tip, beyond your commission, upon closing. We are picky & discriminating buyers but also very reasonable and we look forward to working with you.
Is this really done?
How much? beyond the 10%.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 01-02-2012
Maine Sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 5,362
Thanks: 11
Thanked 122 Times in 90 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Is this really done?
How much? beyond the 10%.
I have given good brokers up to a $500.00 tip at closing but that $500.00 has never really been out of "my pocket". A good broker will let you have access to soldboats.com so you can make an "educated" offer, will help you re-negotiate after a survey etc. etc.. The seller is usually the one paying that $500.00 even though I technically paid it.

Remember many of these guys are splitting a brokerage fee between themselves, another brokerage and their own firm.... A 10% commission on a 40,000.00 boat quickly becomes well under 2k for a broker before taxes, if it was not their listing. If you've spend months of their time consider it a good will gesture and consider the future mileage it will get you IF they were worth it. A GOOD broker is worth having at your side anytime you call.

I have my broker and won't use anyone else for a good reason.... She did not get a tip on my last sale but only because it was her listing, her brokerage and she'll get my business in the future. You need to base any tip on the circumstances. She rarely comes with me on "drive by's" so I am not wasting much of her time + I send her a fair amount of business.. For our last sale she visited four boats with me. The other 40+ I ruled out on "drive by's".. I then found our current boat while at a party with one of my best friends when he told me his dads boat was for sale. SOLD I said!!! Call your Dad.... Sadly it was under contract with MY BROKER and thus I had never seen it listed!!! Lucky for me the deal fell through.....

It all depends upon the situation.
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.


Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 01-02-2012
davidpm's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,732
Thanks: 191
Thanked 45 Times in 38 Posts
Rep Power: 7
davidpm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
I have given good brokers up to a $500.00 tip at closing but that $500.00 has never really been out of "my pocket". A good broker will let you have access to soldboats.com so you can make an "educated" offer, will help you re-negotiate after a survey etc. etc.. The seller is usually the one paying that $500.00 even though I technically paid it.
Good to know.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Clipper Marine 21 1972 Parts/Resources tjrobison General Discussion (sailing related) 7 08-19-2013 10:10 PM
Looking for Resources lmcwjm Introduce Yourself 0 08-30-2011 01:22 PM
Looking for Resources re: Minifish HatfieldCW General Discussion (sailing related) 1 07-02-2008 11:49 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:23 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.