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Fire Onboard, Very Close Call!

5K views 30 replies 16 participants last post by  pdqaltair 
#1 ·
On this past Thursday, I was working on the galley stove, rebuilding a burner. The fuel is kerosene and apparently the alchol from the preheat cup leaked from the cup bottom. I do not know if the nut was not tightened enough or if the sealing washer was defective. In any case the alc ran down the copper supply tube, onto the fuel line flex hose and melted the hose where it is attached to the copper. The alc was lit and the fire followed the tube. I noticed it immediately and turned off the tank supply safety valve at the tank, grabbed an DC extinguisher and within 5 seconds the fire appeared to be out. At the time I did not realize that the fire had melted the hose and some plastic items which were stored in the compartment behind the stove. The fire flared once again but was quickly out as I had good access to the compartment.

Based on the rapid increase of the fire from the time of discovery, turning off the valve, picking up the extinguisher, a total of less than 10 seconds, as all were right there, I estimate that within 10 more seconds I would have lost it. While I still consider Kero very safe from explosion, it burns when hot enough, especially when fuled by burning, melting, plastic.

I am now dealing with cleanup and odor. Some of the plywood was scorched inside the cabinet. No structural damage as the heat was directed up away from the hull. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

I have now removed the stove for better access and have replaced the first six feet of hose with copper. I learned a valuable lesson, and did not panic. The boat was at my dock, the only one there, behind my house, and posed no danger to others. This could have been in a marina, or at sea.
 
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#4 ·
Were you able to use the same fire extinguisher both times?
I thought that most of them were exhausted after just a couple of seconds.
 
#5 ·
Yes David I was. The fire first appeared small and under the stove and was put out quickly. A couple of seconds later I heard a popping sound, which must have been the fuel hose melting. That is when I found that the bulk of the fire was behind the stove in a galley storage compartment where the fuel hose is routed. That burst finished the extinguisher and put out the fire. I picked up the second one and was at the ready but no more fire appeared anywhere. After an hour I started cleaning up the powder.

Those small ABC extinguishers do not last too long, but powder was everywhere. I have four near the galley.
 
#6 ·
The powder was everywhere. Yes, it will be turning up for weeks or months. There are some aqueous foam models and sprays that are more expensive but less mess, fwiw. As well as CO2 of course, ignoring the difference in intended uses. One of the "sprays" is called Tundra and apparently it is a fairly clean way to hit small fires.

You might consider using "fire jelly" instead of alcohol to preheat. You can buy it in tubes, like toothpaste, or make it up easily yourself. Take some white canning paraffin wax, or old candle stubs, dice it up, add some naphtha or similar petrosolvent, and let it sit in a jelly jar for a week or two. The wax dissolves and gives you a thicker white version of vaseline, except it is wax not grease so it burns cleanly. Add to a tube (from a pharmacy or camping store) and you can easily control the preheat by squeezing a small ribbon of fire jelly into the cup instead of the alcohol. the jelly can't run off, and burns with a visible flame.

The rule of thumb for the small powder exinguishers (about a liter size) is that they can put out "one trash basket" worth of fire, and they'll be gone in 30 seconds. The problem being that a fire will also usualy double in size in 30 seconds.

Glad you got it under control so quickly!
 
#7 ·
....... The fuel is kerosene and apparently the alchol from the preheat cup leaked..........the alc ran down the copper supply tube............The alc was lit and the fire followed the tube.........I still consider Kero very safe from explosion............
alc is probably alcohol and kero is probably kerosene. They are definitely not the same fuel!
 
#12 · (Edited)
Capt., sorry, guess I did not make myself clear on the fuel being used, alcohol/kerosene. The fuel is kerosene, being used in a Taylors 030 stove, which uses the pre heat cups below the burners, in which the alcohol is used for the pre heat process only.

The problem was my fault, without question, in that I apparently did not tighten the sealing gasket nut on the underside of the cup enough after rebuilding the oven burner. I have come to this conclusion as I removed the stove from the boat and used the same gasket in the reassembly process, I discovered the loose nut, and have since bench tested the stove with positive results for two hours.

This oven burner is difficult to install due to space and the need for using two wrenches together, blindly, in order to align it properly. (Not an excuse, just a fact). I will not, in the future, attempt to rebuild the oven burner without removing the stove. The top burners are very simple as access is fine and it is easy to see the underside of things to better check for leaks.

There was no spillage, in this instance, as there was no alcohol appearing on the floor of the stove under the burner, before lighting, as occurs in an overfill situation. This was the first time the burner was being tried after the rebuilding, and I was looking for that, which has occurred on occasion in the past.

I use a long tube, 20 inches, on a squeeze container to fill the cups, which I have found to be very effective so far. I did not realize that after filling cup that the alcohol, from the cup was leaking from the hole in the bottom of the cup as the alc in the cup was burning properly on the surface. When the burner knob was turned, the flare up from the kerosene, which is somewhat typical, apparently ignited the alcohol, which had run under the stove, down the copper tube from the burner, and into the rear compartment behind the stove. It was also burning under the stove.
 
#8 ·
GREETINGS EARTHLINGS; Have you repales the extingushers with bigger ones, I sail in UK and have used Parafin (kerosine) stoves but for preeheat I use Metholated spirit in a plastic bottel that has a pipe that goes down to the bottom so it squirts a fine jet into the preeheat cup without spillage (Chemesty shop Supply) also have a large fire blanket on board in case of a big flare up GO SAFE.
 
#9 ·
We used a pressurized alchohol stove for a decade (with the same preheat requirements of a kerosene stove) and after a few scary preheat fires and stinging eyes we took to preheating the burners with a propane torch.. I know, another fuel, but the convenience and safety of it seem worth it. No more flareups and no smell/fumes.
 
#14 ·
We used a pressurized alcohol stove for a decade (with the same preheat requirements of a kerosene stove) and after a few scary preheat fires and stinging eyes we took to preheating the burners with a propane torch.. I know, another fuel, but the convenience and safety of it seem worth it. No more flareups and no smell/fumes.
Thanks Faster, we do on occasion use the propane torch, kept above deck, to preheat, which according to Taylors is actually better for burner longevity also.

Thank you to everyone for your post and suggestions. Been at this for 50 years, and am always learning!
 
#11 ·
Thanks for the tip Faster! I still have the old alcohol stove which works well and a kero cabin heater. Both have alcohol priming. I'll most definitely try the torch idea. The heater is a big PITA to get primed. Know what you mean about fumes from the alcohol. Fire aboard is just plain scary. Glad you didn't go up in flames Leocat. Sounds like you were on it quickly.
 
#15 ·
Definitely some good suggestions here, re: fire jelly and propane pre-heating.

Faster: Are you using something like a plumber's torch or something more like a chef's torch for creme brulee? How long are you heating the tube for?

Leo: You're not the only one. I nearly burned my boat to the waterline with a liquid fuel camping stove. The rubber o-ring on the plunger pump deteriorated just enough to weep under pressure, but not during storage so I did not notice a leak. The pump wept fuel into a puddle beneath and behind the stove, out of sight.

The fumes abruptly caught, in a rather large conflagration. Like you, I responded immediately with a powder ABC extinguisher, and prevented any damage but it was a scary thing. I had some personal effects on the galley counter that were ruined by the flames. I served aboard submarines where I was taught paranoia about fires and flooding, so luckily I was clear headed and reaction was automatic. I didn't freak out until it was over.
 
#16 ·
Faster: Are you using something like a plumber's torch or something more like a chef's torch for creme brulee? How long are you heating the tube for?
We used the 'plumber's torch' - the tall narrow ones - with a self sparking burner attachment. We've long since switched to propane, but we used to head the burner for at least 45 secs to a minute, then turn on the stove burner using the torch to light it off. No fumes, no mess. Worked every time.

It also made a great barbeque lighter as well!
 
#17 ·
I think a nice propane system would be a sensible safety upgrade

Perhaps a more PC post would be to say:

"It just goes to show, it's always something."
Rosanna Rosannadanna, SNL

___________

Honestly, I've played with too many camp stoves (white gas and kero) to feel that anything requiring preheating is intrinsically safer, just different failure modes. And starting a kero stove in the winter is even worse. I would consider it a negative and the corporate would veto it.

Just my opinion.
 
#18 ·
I agree, and got rid of the white gas camping stove. Although I have the pressurized alcohol stove now, I'd really like to get rid of it, and buy an Origo, non-pressurized alcohol stove.

I'm just looking for a safer way to use this stove, in the meantime. :)
 
#19 ·
For those who have not see this. Yachting Monthly trashed a Jeanneau to demonstrate emergencies.



I really like the fire blanket idea; but have never seen one on a boat.
 
#23 ·
Yes you do. A damp beach towel. Perhaps more effective in most cases. I used one on a neighbor's outboard once; he over filled the tank and then started it. I had a towel over my neck (sheer luck--just to a swim) which was already quite damp. I just through it over the engine. Put it right out, before there was any damage, not even paint.

That said, if it is a grease fire, too much water could make it splatter. But really, that would be under the towel and not very important.

You're just thinking store-bought vs. old school and effective.

Of course, we would have simply put the lid on the pan.
 
#20 ·
I understand the issues of inconvenience with the traditional stoves and the like. I probably would not be around had I made a similar error with some other fuels. Kero is much safer, IMHO and cannot be lit with an open flame unless atomized and heated first. It will produce one heck of a fire though once it takes off. The risk of explosion is very low.

As mentioned earlier, I sometimes use propane to light the stove. It is kept in a box on deck. I cringe every time I carry it below. We use oil lamps much of the time and therefore have open flames on a regular basis. Those are always turned off prior to lighting the torch. We have a friend who was badly burned while attempting to change a butane cannister on a portable one burner camp type stove, in his galley, while underway well offshore, while the main stove was operating. The apparently defective can ruptured in his hand on installation and exploded, due to the stove flame. He survived and went on to sail again, making a lasting impression on those who know him. Just another human error which could have had awful results for he and his crew.
 
#21 ·
I have now removed the stove for better access and have replaced the first six feet of hose with copper.
I'd advise you check into that application of copper. Copper work hardens and cracks from vibration - that's why copper fuel lines on cars got phased out about 100 years ago. If you want the fuel line armoured, consider stainless braided hose or at least a braided stainless sheath over your conventional hose.
 
#27 ·
Something I will check on any simular stove I get from now on, you don't have to make the whole hose copper, but make a drip loop before the coupling adaptor. That way it doesn't run all the way down the hose.
 
#24 ·
pdq-
Good lateral thinking but
Fisrt, you go forward to get a towel
Second, you go aft to get a bucket and line out of the lazarette, assuming the galley sink is not accessible or the pressure water not on
Third, towel overboard in bucket
Fourth, return to galley...

Even if you grab a wet towel from the settee you're giving the fire too much time. A fire's size doubles every 30 seconds and if it is behind the stove, etc., you don't want to start looking and thinking.

There really are fire blankets, they are not expensive. Aramid or kevlar, yes, pricey, plain old cheap tight wool blanket will do equally well. It really should be in a box, wall mounted and ready to pull and use, if you plan to use it. The extinguisher allows you to keep a little further back from the flames though, so it might still be worth the mess.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Agreed. Which is why quick, clear headed reactions are so important.



People tend to hesitate to use an extinguish, for a number of reasons, and that time is critical. A cool headed person instinctively uses a blanket or something equivalent where appropriate; they quickly remove any nearby fuel and then smother the fire. I've worked around combustion testing labs and welding a good bit, where puting out little blazes is commonplace and reflexive.

I'm sure I can wet a towel in less than 10 seconds with less ritual :)laugher); several always hang near the companionway (cats are broad there) and I have steps on the transom. Most cooking is at anchor, if that is the example.

I like the fact that a blanket tends to confine the flames; in addition to the mess, extinguishers can knock things about.

I'd forgotten fire blankets were wool when I was a kid. Almost a reason to carry one.

I like the idea of a kitchen towel that could be dual-purpose; very flame retardant and a bit larger than typical for a hand towel. An idea for the chandlers listening at the edges!

----

But there's nothing like a good ol' wet blanket!
 
#30 ·
The fire blanket seems great, for when the fire happens to be right on top of the galley in such a way that covering it from above will close off the oxygen supply, like the pan fire in the YM video. But I don't see a blanket working when the fire is inside, behind, or below the stove.

The (proper) extinguisher works in all situations and therefore doesn't require me to make decisions about which tool is appropriate for the job in a situation where my decision-making ability might be impaired.

Maybe my fire drill should be, apply the blanket, then ready the extinguisher and inspect.
 
#31 ·
The fire blanket seems great, for when the fire happens to be right on top of the galley in such a way that covering it from above will close off the oxygen supply, like the pan fire in the YM video. But I don't see a blanket working when the fire is inside, behind, or below the stove.

Obviously. It is just one tool. The rules require minimum fire extinguisher capacities and we are suggesting no less.

The (proper) extinguisher works in all situations and therefore doesn't require me to make decisions about which tool is appropriate for the job in a situation where my decision-making ability might be impaired.

Maybe my fire drill should be, apply the blanket, then ready the extinguisher and inspect.

You MUST think clearly. That is at the heart of seamanship. If you have never put out a grease fire or a camp fire with a blanket or towel, you need to, in order to have skill and confidence. If you have never used a fire extinguisher, you need to, several times with several geometries, in order to have skill, confidence and a respect for the limitations of dry chemical; it is much less effective than you think it is and the fire can easily re-light from the heat since there is little cooling effect. For example, a bucket of water may work better on a big hunk of burning, melting fiberglass.
We are using the word "drill" in the wrong sense. Like an MOB "drill", it needs to be real. Someone in the water.

The other thing that bothered me was a response that an extinguisher gives you more "distance." If you have a fire at sea, you are in a real fight and you may be taking the boat apart to get to it, to find the source, and to eliminate the fuel. Each situation is different. We had a small electrical fire off-shore once (a fan melted) and it became very clear that we HAD to find the source and we HAD to get it out (not too surprisingly a fan is tough to figure out, since it blows the smoke everywhere).

Time can be very short. In a few minutes you need to get it out, while you are also doing other things:
* distress call
* organizing crew or guests
* launch raft or tender
* ditch bag, or
* what should have been in the ditch bag
Very busy.

Since a fire at sea means either getting it out or going for a swim (or dingy), the effort must be an aggressive battle waged without any panic... until the gas tank is in question, and then you better bolt, as I watched a gas powered boat go once at the dock (unattended--perhaps a bilge pump); it didn't "blow" but it did flare suddenly..
 
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