Jeff and all the outher realy smart guys and galls

obiec · #1 (**permalink**) 10-16-2003

You sound like you have been around a lot of boats I was hopping to pick your brain on a problem. The Ingrid 38 is a double ender full keel as you already know. There are some specks for it at this web address. http://hood.hctc.com/~esteve/ I have re powered this boat with a new 43 hp vetas diesel engine. And one thing that it dose and the other did as well is it will growl at different rpms. But not always the same RPMs. I have replaced the packing and that was not it. Could it be the cutlass Bering.
But that is not my real question . My real question is. Under power the back of the boat will start to squat. At around 1,700 RPMs it will drive the back of the boat down around 12 inches in the water and the boat will be doing around 5.5 to 6 kts. And around 2,200 RPMs. It will drive the back down around 2 feet and will see a speed of around 6 to 6.5 kts. And it will be pushing very hard. The engine in these boats the engine is almost flat hardly any drop to the transom where most boats the engine tilts back maybe 7 degrees or more. It is almost like it needs a trim tab on the transom to give it some lift. I think the boat should not start to fight hull speed till it is around 6 kts. But I think this boat starts to just after Idle or 1,000 RPMS. I don’t suppose prop size would help would it.

soapstone · #2 (**permalink**) 10-17-2003

One thought might be this- in looking at the pictures of your boat, it looks to me as if the entry gets a little fine at the bow, especially if it is riding a little high as you suggest. Might be that the effective waterline length is less than the published LWL under these circumstances.

Jeff_H · #3 (**permalink**) 10-17-2003

I have always like the Atkins Ingrids. They have always been a faxorite within the heavy weight double ended cruiser genre. Unfortunately, if a double ender is going to have the type of comparatively fine stern that gives old style double enders their enduring appeal (and safety in a breaking wave) they will tend to squat under power. It is the same problem that keeps them from being as fast when reaching as a boat with more bearing aft. Modern double enders are designed with more fullness in the stern and as such do not squat as much but also offer no advantage over a transom boat.Short of adding trim tabs (which of course is not the best idea) I really don''t know what you can do to ease that problem.

Respectfully,
Jeff

obiec · #4 (**permalink**) 10-17-2003

I have an idea that might be a little out there but here it goes tell me what you think.
I am going to be adding a Aries wind vane this winter. I will have to build the mounting brackets all custom to go around the ruder. I wish to design them so I could climb up them incase I was throughn overboard. ( I single hand most of the time), Looks are very important so it will be small. But on the back of that I could put a plate around 24” wide and maybe 8 inches long,. That could be quickly taken of or have the angle of it adjusted. It would be only a few inches above the water line, and if I could give it a downward angle of around 20 degrease then as soon as the boat started to squat it would enter the water and give it some lift. And I could remove it on the ocations that I will get to sail. My boat will be in the Puget sound area and I like to cruse. Around the Islands you have to motor a lot. But on some days you go out just to sail. Do you think this would do much. It would not be nearly as much flotation as a large stern.

Jeff_H · #5 (**permalink**) 10-18-2003

Effectively you are making a trim tab. Near hull speed it would probably help some. You would need to build it so that it is very sturdy as the loads will be pretty high. I don''t know if 2'' x 8" will be large enough. That is about a quarter of the area of each of the two trim tabs that you would expect to see on a power boat of the weight of the Ingrid and they are operating at considerably higher speeds.

I am surprised that you are putting an Aries on board. Most of the Ingrids that I knew with wind vanes used a servo- blade mounted in the trailing edge of the rudder that was hooked to simple diagonal shaft windvane. These were so simple to build and so reliable and easy to build that I can''t recall one with a store bought vane.

Jeff

obiec · #6 (**permalink**) 10-18-2003

I would be very interested in this disign if you could help me out. I have ben in cantact with an Ingrid that is in france right now, and he uses sheet to tiller. he is proud of it, but dose say it takes a lot of tinkering, and he is going to ad a windvane when he makes it back to the states. Also on the squating isue, I was thinking a smaller steeper prop might help. mabe whith the higher volacity water and less quantity it would not dig as big of a hole.???

svGandalf · #7 (**permalink**) 10-18-2003

Here is a nice Ingrid for sale....in Canadian funds too!
http://www.windwardyachts.com/sb_38orithyia.html

Jeff_H · #8 (**permalink**) 10-18-2003

The way that a servo blade rudder works on an outboard rudder is that there is a small counterbalanced rudder on the trailing edge of the steering rudder. This small rudder is often mounted several inches aft of the main rudder on sturdy stainless steel gudgeons. The rudder post of the counterbalanced rudder extends above the rudder head by several inches and is well supported. At the top of the counterbalanced rudderpost is a small sheave (we used to make that out of a small trailer roller). A line runs around that sheave several times and is secured so that it rotates the counterbalanced rudder shaft. The line is then run thru blocks on eitherside of the main rudder near the pivot axis of the main rudder and then to the deck below the mounting point of the wind vane. The wind vanes were typically horizontal or diagonal axis vanes and the line would then run around the sheave of the vane shaft. When the vane knocked over it would rotate the counterbalanced trim rudder which would in turn push the main rudder to one side or another. Ingrids could develop wicked weather helm so it was important to begin to balance the helm before setting the vane.

Jeff

obiec · #9 (**permalink**) 10-19-2003

That all make good sense, Except it dose not seam that a small servo blade ruder would have enough power to move the main ruder, unless the main ruder was a Simi balanced ruder. Which of course it is not on an Ingrid. I am having my boat Haled in the spring and this sounds like a perfect vane for my boat. Very little clutter. If you have Sean it work I think I will give it a try.

Jeff_H · #10 (**permalink**) 10-19-2003

The servo blade mounted aft of the main rudder has a lot of leverage. The one thing that concerns me is that it is very hard to rig a windvane on a ketch as the down draft from the mizzen (if not the mizzen boom itself) plays havoc with the vane on one tack or the other.

Jeff