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post #11 of 23 Old 01-29-2012
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We went with NE Ropes Endura with 12 strand dyneema core for our running rigging when we replaced it last year.. VPC is also a good product as midlife has suggested

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post #12 of 23 Old 01-29-2012
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I chose to use Sta-set on my Alberg 30 for all running rigging mainly because it fit my sailing style(never push it too hard and reef early) and of course, cost and availabilty. With that said I have experienced a bit of stretch, but after getting sailing with it for a while I found that if I cranked in a bit preload, if you will, I never expeienced any additional stretch even in heavy weather, mainsail luff stayed nice and tight.
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post #13 of 23 Old 01-30-2012
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What lines are are Kevlar? I've never seen that used in running rigging.

IIRC, Sta-Set X is actually pretty low stretch. About the same as the mid-level hi-tech lines with dyneema blended with something cheaper, which cost somewhat more than X. But X is stiff and kinks easily and just has a bad feel.

For my next halyard I plan to splice 12 strand dyneema into to something like Sta-Set. The sail head to mast to clutch length will be the dyneema part. The part in the clutch and all the tail you need to get the halyard back down would be the Sta-Set. The stretch and strength of the latter doesn't matter, so something cheap with a good hand will do. The former part isn't handled and needs low stretch, so use dyneema 12-strand.

A dyneema 12-strand like amsteel blue isn't that expensive. And since the line is 100% load bearing dyneema you can use a smaller diameter and still get the needed strength/stretch vs say Samson XLS-Extra or MLX. There's no wasted diameter used in a cover that contributes little to the line strength like some of the covered dyneema/vectran/PBO lines. For a Catalina 25 you could probably use 3/16" or 1/8" amsteel blue. Certainly anything over 1/4" is overkill.
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post #14 of 23 Old 01-30-2012
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1/4" technora for me. but I use technora laminate sails.

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post #15 of 23 Old 01-30-2012
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It is not really feasible to splice Amsteel to a polyester line. You can put a cover on it but he exposed Amsteel needs to be protected from the suns UV rays.
Racers that use bare Dyneema lines pull them up into the mast when not in use to keep them out of the sun.

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Originally Posted by tap View Post
What lines are are Kevlar? I've never seen that used in running rigging.

IIRC, Sta-Set X is actually pretty low stretch. About the same as the mid-level hi-tech lines with dyneema blended with something cheaper, which cost somewhat more than X. But X is stiff and kinks easily and just has a bad feel.

For my next halyard I plan to splice 12 strand dyneema into to something like Sta-Set. The sail head to mast to clutch length will be the dyneema part. The part in the clutch and all the tail you need to get the halyard back down would be the Sta-Set. The stretch and strength of the latter doesn't matter, so something cheap with a good hand will do. The former part isn't handled and needs low stretch, so use dyneema 12-strand.

A dyneema 12-strand like amsteel blue isn't that expensive. And since the line is 100% load bearing dyneema you can use a smaller diameter and still get the needed strength/stretch vs say Samson XLS-Extra or MLX. There's no wasted diameter used in a cover that contributes little to the line strength like some of the covered dyneema/vectran/PBO lines. For a Catalina 25 you could probably use 3/16" or 1/8" amsteel blue. Certainly anything over 1/4" is overkill.
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post #16 of 23 Old 01-31-2012
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It is not really feasible to splice Amsteel to a polyester line. You can put a cover on it but he exposed Amsteel needs to be protected from the suns UV rays.
Racers that use bare Dyneema lines pull them up into the mast when not in use to keep them out of the sun.
I've seen a splice for 12 strand into double braid. You basically bury the 12-strand into the core of the double braid, bury the core into the 12-strand, milk that back in the cover, and the bury the cover into the 12-stand where the core ends.

Something like amsteel has a urethane coating and has an excellent UV resistance. Just plain dyneema is good with UV too. Vectran doesn't like UV much, but dyneema is ok. I know plenty of boats with bare dyneema standing rigging, lifelines and halyards and it does just fine.
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post #17 of 23 Old 01-31-2012
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Doesn't anyone use plain old Dacron double braid anymore? Still cheap and effective AFAICS.

Before hurling scorn, abuse etc, please keep in mind that when I started sailing IT was high tech line.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #18 of 23 Old 01-31-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
I found this about Kevlar

Flex fatigue resistance

Using Kevlar as factor of one, these are approximate fatigue life comparisons of the high tech fibers.
Kevlar 1; Technora 8; Vectran 15; Spectra 25

Svendsen's Boat Works: Rig Shop

It appears as if Kevlar has fallen out of favor.

Not true for halyards in general.
a. Given the downsizing that is possible with Kevlar, the rope/pulley ratio is quite acceptable. The requirements are the same for wire rope, which it often replaces.
b. Halyards don't run all that much. A jib sheet, winched all the time, is a different matter.

My last Kevlar halyard lasted a LONG time, and is now in service other places. Total life: over 20 years. It was 5mm in a 27-foot boat running over a ~ 2 3/4-inch pulley. Not much flexing required. But you won't find straight Kevlar anyway; it will be a blend.

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Last edited by pdqaltair; 01-31-2012 at 07:51 AM.
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post #19 of 23 Old 01-31-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Doesn't anyone use plain old Dacron double braid anymore? Still cheap and effective AFAICS.

Before hurling scorn, abuse etc, please keep in mind that when I started sailing IT was high tech line.
Ordinary Sta-Set. Sure you can, and there's nothing wrong with it. Easy to splice (especially compared to Sta-Set X), just as long as you're willing to put up with stretch and creep.

...and before anyone jumps me about how stretch is only a concern for racers, that is absolutely not true. If you're caught in a blow, you want flat sails, (even when reefed) and if your halyard is stretching, you have to keep futzing with it.

I haven't actually tried it myself, but I've reviewed the splicing procedure for parallel core line (Sta-set X) and I'm convinced that "X" is the devil.

VPC is an affordable, lighter, low stretch hybird that rarely kinks and is as easy to splice as Sta-Set. Good for cruisers, day sailors and casual racers.

For racing, definitely talk to zz4gta. I've raced with him and he's done amazing things with line to make them super strong, and reduce weight aloft. 1st Place in his region and class high point series!

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post #20 of 23 Old 01-31-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
Ordinary Sta-Set. Sure you can, and there's nothing wrong with it. Easy to splice (especially compared to Sta-Set X), just as long as you're willing to put up with stretch and creep.

...and before anyone jumps me about how stretch is only a concern for racers, that is absolutely not true. If you're caught in a blow, you want flat sails, (even when reefed) and if your halyard is stretching, you have to keep futzing with it.

I haven't actually tried it myself, but I've reviewed the splicing procedure for parallel core line (Sta-set X) and I'm convinced that "X" is the devil.

VPC is an affordable, lighter, low stretch hybird that rarely kinks and is as easy to splice as Sta-Set. Good for cruisers, day sailors and casual racers.

For racing, definitely talk to zz4gta. I've raced with him and he's done amazing things with line to make them super strong, and reduce weight aloft. 1st Place in his region and class high point series!
Absolutely agree on the importance of low stretch for cruising boats. The luff tension on my boat, with a large mainsail, is very important. If the tension is not maintained, in heavier wind, the center of effort on the main moves back, creating weather helm. It's like having a reverse cunningham.
I left my old s.s. wire rope when I replaced the halyard, did away with the wire-rope splice and just put an eye/shackle to join wire and line. The bitter end can't be pulled back through the sheave and would need to be cut to get it out but it never has to pass the sheave. When hauled in, there is only about 2' of line which eliminates stretch. Wire is a PITA but does not stretch to any noticeable amount.

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