Understanding fuel and e10 gasoline tank vent driers

[Waltthesalt]

I think this is all about minimizing all ways for water to get into the diesel. So condensation can be a significant part. The primary issue is algae and if there's enough water its water in the fuel injection as well as the algae. The cost of rebuilding a fuel injection system can approach the cost of the engine. So anything we can do to keep the fuel clean is worth it. Water also comes form what gets pumped aboard with with the fuel. So checking the bottom of the tank and taking out that water is also a big part of the solution. FYI in Europe where they mandated adding bio-diesels the algae problems on boats got a lot worse. I think you heat the H2OUT and the water comes out so you can use it again

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by dabnis

I did a similar but simpler test. Half a coffee can of gas, not sure how much ethanol was in it, about 2 ounces of water, and some Berryman's B-12 fuel additive. After a few minutes the water was no longer visible. After about 6 months the only thing left was a very small amount of thick dark goo, about the consistency of 90 wt gear oil. To this day it has not dried, still very thick
oil like substance. That was about a year ago. Have no idea what it means but I suppose if it was in the bottom of an empty float bowl new gas coming in may melt it and cause no problems? As mentioned in an earlier post I did have a float bowl that had solid deposits in it, kind of like course salt, after forgetting to drain it.

Dabnis

a. Was the gas e10 or something else? Need to know.

b. I would not put significant amounts of these in my fuel (from the B-12 MSDS):
Acetone 67-64-1 20-30%
2-Butoxyethanol 111-76-2 <5%
Isopropyl Alcohol 67-63-0 <5%
Methanol 67-56-1 20-30%
Methyl Ethyl Ketone 78-93-3 <5%
You will have materials compatibility issues.

My guess is that you over-treated the gas, dissolved the water, and made a soup that would be very unhealthy. Small amounts--very small--might be OK. But most manufacturers warn against all of those ingredients for regular use.

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by Waltthesalt

I think you heat the H2OUT and the water comes out so you can use it again.

a. As Rich pointed out, the diesel will coke on the silica. I doubt it would regen more than a few times. That seems to be the conventional wisdom on systems where significant hydrocarbons absorb.

b. Where are you going to heat a diesel soaked element? The kitchen oven?

Ergo, they are single-use, or you find your own refills (easy enough).

[dabnis]

Originally Posted by pdqaltair

a. Was the gas e10 or something else? Need to know.

b. I would not put significant amounts of these in my fuel (from the B-12 MSDS):
Acetone 67-64-1 20-30%
2-Butoxyethanol 111-76-2 <5%
Isopropyl Alcohol 67-63-0 <5%
Methanol 67-56-1 20-30%
Methyl Ethyl Ketone 78-93-3 <5%
You will have materials compatibility issues.

My guess is that you over-treated the gas, dissolved the water, and made a soup that would be very unhealthy. Small amounts--very small--might be OK. But most manufacturers warn against all of those ingredients for regular use.

PD,

Thanks for the reply. The gas was Shell regular unleaded. A sign on the pump says it may contain up to 10% ethanol. In regular use I have followed the Berryman instructions, 1 ounce per gallon and have not had any fuel related problems for many years. I tried another test, gas, water, & Berrymans B-12 addetive in an old carb. Put it back together , let it set for several months. When I re-opened it there was absolutely nothing in the float bowl. It was perfectly clean. Maybe the fuel drying in the confined quarters of the float bowl was the difference between my 2 tests?

Dabnis

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by dabnis

PD,

Thanks for the reply. The gas was Shell regular unleaded. A sign on the pump says it may contain up to 10% ethanol. In regular use I have followed the Berryman instructions, 1 ounce per gallon and have not had any fuel related problems for many years. I tried another test, gas, water, & Berrymans B-12 addetive in an old carb. Put it back together , let it set for several months. When I re-opened it there was absolutely nothing in the float bowl. It was perfectly clean. Maybe the fuel drying in the confined quarters of the float bowl was the difference between my 2 tests?

Dabnis

Interesting. A few thoughts.

a. Berrymans B-12 costs $0.68/treated gallon ($11/16oz). Gosh, gas only cost $0.30/gallon when I started driving. This is strikes me as rather pricy--an extra $20 per fill-up--considering most additives, like Stabil, price out about 10x less at the recommended use rate. There are other ways to avoid fuel problems, I think. But I'm not saying that it does not work; I've no reason to say that. Most of my motors have never had a fuel related problems for 10 years, no additive, and sporadic use and poor care. Hard to say. Antidotal evidence is tricky.

b. To find the amount of ethanol, take 100 ml, add 5% water, shake, and wait 20 minutes. measure the amount of free water and subtract the 5% you added. That will be close.

c. Evaporation and oxidation of the fuel take place at the same time and are VERY difficult to model. Yup, something about drying in the open and in the carb were a little different. A little less oxygen in the carb it seems. Interesting.

[dabnis]

Originally Posted by pdqaltair

Interesting. A few thoughts.

a. Berrymans B-12 costs $0.68/treated gallon ($11/16oz). Gosh, gas only cost $0.30/gallon when I started driving. This is strikes me as rather pricy--an extra $20 per fill-up--considering most additives, like Stabil, price out about 10x less at the recommended use rate. There are other ways to avoid fuel problems, I think. But I'm not saying that it does not work; I've no reason to say that. Most of my motors have never had a fuel related problems for 10 years, no additive, and sporadic use and poor care. Hard to say. Antidotal evidence is tricky.

b. To find the amount of ethanol, take 100 ml, add 5% water, shake, and wait 20 minutes. measure the amount of free water and subtract the 5% you added. That will be close.

c. Evaporation and oxidation of the fuel take place at the same time and are VERY difficult to model. Yup, something about drying in the open and in the carb were a little different. A little less oxygen in the carb it seems. Interesting.

IIRC, I pay about $3.00 per 16 ounce can and add a can about once a month during the cold winter months in an attempt to get rid of any water that may be in the tank. Maybe it is kind of like taking vitamins, I am not sure if it does any good but I do it anyway

Re the ethanol, can't really do anything about it anyway but I do appreciate your input as a professional.

Dabnis

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by dabnis

IIRC, I pay about $3.00 per 16 ounce can and add a can about once a month during the cold winter months in an attempt to get rid of any water that may be in the tank. Maybe it is kind of like taking vitamins, I am not sure if it does any good but I do it anyway

Re the ethanol, can't really do anything about it anyway but I do appreciate your input as a professional.

Dabnis

And vitamin logic has some merit.

I'd be careful about over-dosing. Those are some aggressive solvents, not generally in gasoline. It's not like vitamin C, where more is OK!

[dabnis]

Originally Posted by pdqaltair

And vitamin logic has some merit.

I'd be careful about over-dosing. Those are some aggressive solvents, not generally in gasoline. It's not like vitamin C, where more is OK!

I stay with the recommended one ounce per gallon and you are right, it is hot stuff. I put some in a plastic bowl to clean some parts and it melted the bowl.
The label says "Removes paint. Do not spill on painted surfaces." They are not kidding!! However, I have used it on motorcycles with plastic tanks with no problems.

Dabnis

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by dabnis

I stay with the recommended one ounce per gallon and you are right, it is hot stuff. I put some in a plastic bowl to clean some parts and it melted the bowl.
The label says "Removes paint. Do not spill on painted surfaces." They are not kidding!! However, I have used it on motorcycles with plastic tanks with no problems.

Dabnis

There are differences.

The tank in most probably polyethylene, like all jerry cans and poly boat tanks. Impervious to all solvents.

However, even ethanol was terrible on the old style fuel lines and FRP tanks. There are other polymers in the fuel system, according to the brand, so I'm less than sure. For example, I've had a few fuel pump failures that were due to failure of the diaphragm (nitrile).

See if you can find an elastomer that has a good flex life with gasoline, celosolve, MEK, acetone, and ethanol.
Chemical Compatibility Database from Cole-Parmer

Good luck. Most likely something will be vulnerable; where there is a failure depends on time, concentration, the exact material, and the design of the component. That is why most additive manufacturers are scared to death of these ingredients and do not use them.

[dabnis]

Originally Posted by pdqaltair

There are differences.

The tank in most probably polyethylene, like all jerry cans and poly boat tanks. Impervious to all solvents.

However, even ethanol was terrible on the old style fuel lines and FRP tanks. There are other polymers in the fuel system, according to the brand, so I'm less than sure. For example, I've had a few fuel pump failures that were due to failure of the diaphragm (nitrile).

See if you can find an elastomer that has a good flex life with gasoline, celosolve, MEK, acetone, and ethanol.
Chemical Compatibility Database from Cole-Parmer

Good luck. Most likely something will be vulnerable; where there is a failure depends on time, concentration, the exact material, and the design of the component. That is why most additive manufacturers are scared to death of these ingredients and do not use them.

PD,

OK, so noted, I will give it a rest and see what happens. Thanks again for your input.

Dabnis