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  #11  
Old 02-16-2012
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Originally Posted by bljones View Post
*Blasphemy follows. Disciples have been warned.*


I love the pardeys and have all of their books (except Larry's book on building woden boats, because I've sworn off wooden boats). I love the pardeys but I have a furler, an electrical system and I LOVE my motor. The reason I love them is because they show you what the absolute minimum is to do everything possible under sail. Knowing what the minimum is, I can add to it if I like, but it's nice to know just how many things on the boat are "needed" and now many are "wanted."

To the OP: Yes, jib reefing seems like a really good idea. The added cost of the reef points essentially buys you a second sail. If I didn't have a furler, I'd DEFINATELY have reef points. What's the downside? If you decide you hate the setup you're only out the $150 initial cost for the points and you still have a fully functional sail.

Have you seen the pardey book Cost Conscious Cruiser? It explains their jib setup in detail. It involves a zipper and is actually quite novel in that you just "zip off" and remove the lower 1/3 or the sail and stow it. Another idea I've thought would be great would be to use a zipper to bring together a high and low panel of a sail instead of zipping off a panel as the pardeys do. Batwing(tm) sails do this. See images below:

In the first image notice how 2 of the horizontal battens are darker and thicker than the others? They have zippers on them.


The sail is lowered by the length of one sail panel and the two hoirzontal zippers are zipped together. Notice the bag of loose sail in the middle of the second picture here? Also notice how the sail is now not at full hoist.


The above setup is REALLY fast to deploy or shake out a reef (I've used small sails like the ones in the picture) and you don't have to store the bottom part of a sail you've zipped off. On the other hand the pardey method removes the overlapping portion of a sail and you won't be dragging loose sail across the mast/shrouds when tacking with a furled sail.

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  #12  
Old 02-16-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
Yes, this does work. The Mini 6.5 class has been doing it for a while. They put it to use b/c of limits on the number of sails they could carry on board. Give a sailmaker a call. Price should be anywhere from $400-1000 depending on the sail size.
.
This seems to be well in the realm of a sailor with some sewing skills. I put in a third reef in my mainsail. The biggest issue was feeding the sail in the Sailrite for the reinforcement patches. This should be a lot easier for a jib.

Hm, this winter is thankfully nearly over. Maybe a project for the next one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post


I love the pardeys and have all of their books (except Larry's book on building woden boats, because I've sworn off wooden boats). I love the pardeys but I have a furler, an electrical system and I LOVE my motor. The reason I love them is because they show you what the absolute minimum is to do everything possible under sail. Knowing what the minimum is, I can add to it if I like, but it's nice to know just how many things on the boat are "needed" and now many are "wanted."

To the OP: Yes, jib reefing seems like a really good idea. The added cost of the reef points essentially buys you a second sail. If I didn't have a furler, I'd DEFINATELY have reef points. What's the downside? If you decide you hate the setup you're only out the $150 initial cost for the points and you still have a fully functional sail.

Have you seen the pardey book Cost Conscious Cruiser? It explains their jib setup in detail. It involves a zipper and is actually quite novel in that you just "zip off" and remove the lower 1/3 or the sail and stow it. Another idea I've thought would be great would be to use a zipper to bring together a high and low panel of a sail instead of zipping off a panel as the pardeys do. Batwing(tm) sails do this. See images below:

...

MedSailor
Hm, I haven't thought of a zipper. I can see this on a sail for an inflatable kayak but on a real boat? Then again, if he Pardeys recommend it, maybe...

Here is another idea: what about single line reefing? Have a line reeved permanently through the reef nettle eyelets. Reefing then involves hooking the luff cringle, moving the sheet to the higher clew cringle, and just pull on this ONE line through the reef nettle eyelets, instead of tying a knot at each of them.

Only downside I can see that it could get hung up on something.
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Old 02-17-2012
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Thanks for the input everyone. I can see that tacking could be an issue if you need to drag a big sausage of sail across the shrouds. Seems to me that the time from deciding to reef, to sailing with the reefed jib would be much less than hanking on a new sail. You could then take your time tying the reef points. I like the idea of making the clew higher. If you are going down in size, you are also probably more likely to be in higher seas. I think the thing that would sway me to actually doing this, is that I would have one less sailbag to store on my narrow 27'er.
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Old 02-17-2012
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I have a 155 with reef points, have used it. Sail change is better but it works. I have not seen a jib with reef points that also has "tie off" points across the newly formed foot- I've only seen tack and clew points, and the loose foot can't really be rolled up and stay rolled as there's nothing to tie it, so it just flails along the bottom which is unpleasant.
As far as dragging the reefed off portion across deck on a tack, that's not a problem- if there's enough wind to be reefing, the sail will come across.
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I bought a used foresail for my Catalina 27, a bit smaller than my 110% "lapper"-I'd guess ~80%.

It has reef points, though I've never reefed it. It's made of ~6 oz material, so it's heavier for stronger winds, and I think it'd be heavy enough for the stronger winds in which I'd reef it.

Given the increasing weight of the sail cloth between my #1, #2 & #3 foresails, I don't think I'd want a panel reef in those sails_I'd end up flying the reefed sail in conditions too windy for the weight of the sail cloth.

The foot of this sail is short enough so unreefed it clears the shrouds during tacks, so the "tube" hanging up on the shrouds wouldn't be an issue.

I'm not sure when I'd chose to reef this sail instead of flying the storm jib, though. Sometime I'll get out when it's windy and fool around with it a bit...

Just some thoughts...
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Old 02-17-2012
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I have to agree with donlofland the sail would really have to be built to handle the wind strength that the reefed sail could handle. That would make it too heavy for normal use.

Lets say you have a 155 that is good up to 16 knots apparent on your boat. Now if you reef that down to a number two size your boat might be able to carry it up to say 22 knots apparent. That it a huge increase in force on the sail. It will have to be heavy and not work at all well in 6 knots of air.

And that is not even mentioning the loss of luff length which will definitely affect performance.

Gary
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Like others said, reefing down a big genoa might not be such a good idea. I was thinking my suit of sails could be something like: big (light-ish) genoa, reefable 110, and a storm jib. The 110 could be reefed down to something between the 110 and the storm jib in sail area. The foot length would then be short enough to clear the shrouds in a tack. I would loose luff length, but, maybe that would help to keep the boat on it's feet.
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Old 02-17-2012
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If you really want to make things simple(ish) but don't want to install a RF set-up, Here's a thought: install a baby stay, and keep a stormsail hanked and bagged to the baby stay. Install a very long downhaul to the head of your working jib, with the tail led back through a fairlead or two to the foot of the baby stay, then threaded to the head of your staysail. The halyard for your staysail is led back to the cockpit. now, want to change sails? just uncleat the jib halyard, and raise your stay sail. as you raise the staysail, the jib comes down. Now the big sail is on deck, the boat is more controlled and it is a simple matter to deal with the jib on the deck.
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Old 02-17-2012
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Good point, donofland, about the sail having to be constructed of a heavier cloth in order to survive the higher winds when reefed. I doubt that this is a big of a deal as one might imagine. A mainsail, for example, is one weight of cloth for all wind ranges and nobody maligns the cloth weight issue here. L&L Pardey are sticklers for performance and don't even have an engine and they must have been at peace with the idea as they have a reefing/zipper genoa.

I might be wrong here but I believe cloth weight is mostly related to the size of the boat and sails and less about wind range. A boat with a 20ft mast has shorter unsupported sections of sailcloth than a boat with a 40ft mast. Also the boat with the 20ft mast has a 100sqft sail where as the boat with a 40ft mast has 400sqft of sail and with the wind force being a cube of the velocity.... well you get the picture.

For any given wind speed the 40ft mast boat must have cloth to support much heavier loads of it's 400sqft sail than the 100sqft sail of the 20ft mast boat in the same wind. If heavier cloth made for poor performance in any appreciable way then the little boats would be sailing circles around the big ones in races.


If you decide to go ahead and get a slab-reef in your genoa, don't just let the sailmaker put a horizontal set of reef points at %30 of the sail area. Have him angle the reef in such a way as the new reefed clew, when set, will have a similar but slightly more horizontal angle of the sheet with the SAME CAR POSITION. This will allow you to reef without also having to change your genoa car positions and will simplify the reefing operation significantly. Also the slightly more horizontal pull, in favor of an identical sheet angle to the unreefed state, is better for higher winds.

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Last edited by MedSailor; 02-17-2012 at 09:22 PM.
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