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  #31  
Old 02-20-2012
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Ok, sorry folks, I should have never expressed my disdain for the oil industry. I used to work in the industry and didn't care too much for the corporate attitude. I will be careful to stay on topic so that others who have converted and folks thinking about converting don't have to wade through the distractions.
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  #32  
Old 02-29-2012
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knothead has a spectacular aura about knothead has a spectacular aura about knothead has a spectacular aura about
Now this sounds good. I usually don't read the Newsreader threads, but I like this one.

Hybrid Technology Moves from Road to Water - Southern Maryland Online

Hybrid Technology Moves from Road to Water - Southern Maryland Headline News

Quote:
A 36-foot sailboat with a traditional diesel engine can go 350 miles on 50 gallons of fuel, according to Elco Motor Yachts, a New York company that makes electric boat engines. The same boat with a hybrid system can go more than three times as far -- 1,100 miles -- with the same amount of fuel, according to the company.
Quote:
Unlike with a traditional diesel boat engine, the electric motor warms up instantly.

"It's all electronic, it's all computerized. You turn the key and it's ready to go. Instant torque," Reuther said.

There is no vibration, no noise and no smoke from the motor.
I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are, but even if they are exaggerated, it still sounds like quite an improvement over straight diesel.
Combined with the other advantages, it may be something to consider. Though the price is always the deciding factor.
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  #33  
Old 02-29-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
I will be careful to stay on topic so that others who have converted and folks thinking about converting don't have to wade through the distractions.
Thanks for that Officer.
I think what you are doing is very interesting.

Another benefit to your plan that may not have been mentioned is that your diesel should last practically for ever. Can I assume it will either be off or running at optimal load? If so it is stark contract to a normal sailboat auxiliary that is typically running at anything but optimal load. While I doubt that you will pick up all conversion losses by running at optimum load 100 percent of the time I suspect you will pick up a significant percent of them.

Another potential benefit is that the diesel can be easily insulated for sound.

Another benefit is that you may be able to locate it in such a way that access is easy.

As you said it is different and because it is different it will have advantages and disadvantages not necessarily predictable from the start.

You sound like the guy to make it happen and please document the process we are interested.
If you don't mind please let us know what parts you are currently considering:

Electric Drive motor
Prop
Generator
Battery's models
Charge controllers
Monitoring
Inverter
Expected loads
Boat model, displacement and year so we have it all in one place.
Anything I have missed

If you go through all the trouble of outlining the sources, costs, models, weight, calculations etc for your current candidate parts in one place I for one would be willing to help in researching optional components and things to think about. Also other sailnet members may have experience with specific parts even if used in a more traditional way.

If you don't want to be bothered I understand but there are some very talented people here and maybe it would be worth your time even if you get just one good idea.
Also I have the ABYC book so can look stuff up if you don't have it and my son just passed the ABYC electrical exam so I can hit him up for what is the current thinking.


If you don't know of these guys you may find some information from them.
I find the format prehistoric as opposed to a standard forum but yahoo groups has a feed for electric boats that has been around for many years.
electricboats@yahoogroups.com

Last edited by davidpm; 02-29-2012 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 02-29-2012
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The PDQ 36 non-lrc is powered by (2) 9.9 gas outboards, these would be replaced with electric outboards with the same static thrust. Gen sets for AC are very heavy for their output, plus not near as efficient as a diesel DC gen set. 8Kw and under 300 lbs http://www.propulsionmarine.com/wp-c...e-Brochure.pdf

Lead acid propulsion and house batteries too heavy but Lithium in a 48 volt bank can be used for both when teamed with a 48 volt inverter. Magnum MS-4448PAE 48 VDC 4400-watt 48VDC to 120/240VAC sinewave Inverter

Pretty easy stuff, and the rewards are no gas or propane, fully electric galley, electric dinghy, and if need arises, being able to motor for the entire duration of fuel on board. No rocket science at all, and since I already have built and raced EVs, I'm familiar with motors, controllers, batteries, and know the vendors.
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Rather than electric outboards I would look at the pod type drives, there is probably gear reduction in the outboards you may not need. If you can devise a way that the pods lift out of the water when regenerative is not needed would be very beneficial. Pod type motors are usually light and streamlined. Running a diesel at its optimum rpm constantly is the best way to go nevermind those times when you do not even have to start it to depart or return to harbour. Good luck with your venture.
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The electric outboards I'm looking at have power tilt plus a PDQ already is designed for outboards on all models except the LRC. Less thru hull fittings, no drag if regen isn't needed.
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Article from 2 years ago.

Taking
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Old 03-01-2012
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Am I correct in concluding that hybrid power on a catamarans has taken off faster than with mono because of the need for two motors on the cat.
If you can have one diesel and two electric motors there is a automatic savings over having two diesel motors.
That probably almost equals out the complexity.
The numbers wouldn't work out nearly so well with a mono would they?

These guys seem to be deep into hybred work:
http://www.submarineboat.com/hybrid_electric.htm

Last edited by davidpm; 03-01-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Am I correct in concluding that hybrid power on a catamarans has taken off faster than with mono because of the need for two motors on the cat.
If you can have one diesel and two electric motors there is a automatic savings over having two diesel motors.
That probably almost equals out the complexity.
The numbers wouldn't work out nearly so well with a mono would they?

These guys seem to be deep into hybred work:
http://www.submarineboat.com/hybrid_electric.htm
What you said plus cats are weight placement sensitive. Much better to have a 30 lb electric aft in each ama vs a 350 lb diesel. To be able to maneuver within the footprint of the boat with single digit rpm because you can with the low rpm torque of an electric is just icing on the cake. Soon, you will hear the comment "I've been hanging on the hook for two weeks, rather than fire up the gen set, I'll just go for a short day sail to charge up the house bank".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knothead View Post
Now this sounds good. I usually don't read the Newsreader threads, but I like this one.

Hybrid Technology Moves from Road to Water - Southern Maryland Online

Hybrid Technology Moves from Road to Water - Southern Maryland Headline News





I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are, but even if they are exaggerated, it still sounds like quite an improvement over straight diesel.
Combined with the other advantages, it may be something to consider. Though the price is always the deciding factor.
As another poster has brought up, these numbers must not be an apples to apples comparison. The diesel engine must have been run either at idle or been significantly oversized and run at WOT pushing the boat at hull speed while the hybrid was run at optimal. That, or the diesel setup must have had a big problem like improper gearing/prop or something.

In my opinion, a hybrid system can almost never be justified for a sailboat based on efficiency alone. There are other reasons to do it such as where there is confined space, need for multiple propellers, weight placement issues, need for torque at really low rpm, etc. However, you will almost always end up with a less efficient system.

There are 2 types of hybrids, series and parallel. Series (ie Chevy Volt) have an engine driving a generator to produce electricity and then another motor that converts that back to shaft power at the point of use. This system can have an accumulator (usually batteries) or not depending on the design. Parallel (Toyota Prius) have both the engine and motor/generator coupled to the driveshaft. The motor is there to add a bit of extra oomph and to charge back up the accumulator which is necessary in this system.

A diesel engine's efficiency can be defined by the rpm and load on the engine. At higher rpm, the parisitics go up a bit as does airflow which means that you get larger pressure drop over the valves but leakage goes down. At higher load, parisitics become a smaller percentage of the total power and complete combustion becomes less likely. Most diesel engines have a maximum WOT efficiency at an rpm that is very close to where the torque peak is. As load is decreased, the most efficient rpm will decrease. However, since a sailboat runs close to full load at all rpm, the maximum efficiency point correlates to closer to 70% of rated rpm. Note, this is the efficiency of the engine only and ignores the changes in prop efficiency and hull drag as the speed changes. Also, it is worth noting that this is the point at which most diesel engines are operated at in a boat.

With a series hybrid, you still have an engine running at a similar rpm and load so the efficiency will be similar. The problem is that you then convert the shaft power to electrical power, possibly send it into an accumulator, send it through a controller and then convert it back to shaft power. Each conversion along the way represents a drop in efficiency. An example might be 90%(generator)*95% (controller)*90%(motor)=77% which means you lost 23% of the energy to heat somewhere. This is a little bit simplistic because it ignores a few very small losses and the reverse gear versus belt that is normally present in an electric drive but it shows that the more energy conversions, the worse off you are. Another way to look at it would be if you have a 30hp engine and no accumulators, you would only have 23hp if you had a series hybrid. The efficiency gap gets even worse when you throttle back since the diesel engine will decrease in rpm whereas the diesel engine in the hybrid will continue to run at the same rpm in most cases to maintain the proper charging voltage. One way to get around the efficiency drop is to make a plug-in hybrid where you have accumulators which are charged by the grid and the engine is only there for range extension. This system could make sense for people who do not motor very far and have regular access to shore power but it is really a range extended electric drive system, not a hybrid.

A parallel hybrid works by having both the engine and motor generator coupled directly to the shaft. In normal cruising mode for a boat, this would mean that only the engine would be operational. If you operated the motor, you would deplete your batteries and then need to recharge them using the engine which would be less efficient due to all of the energy conversions. The reason that these work in cars is that cars operate in transient states a lot of the time instead of at steady state. During acceleration, the motor is used allowing the engine to be smaller and during braking the motor acts as a generator and reclaims some of the energy that would otherwise be dissipated as heat by the brakes. In boats, you will never make regen work except when sailing in a good breeze with the prop spinning the generator you can get a bit. The one advantage that I can see to a hybrid in this case is the ability to have a slightly smaller engine which runs at almost WOT during normal cruising and uses the electric motor for a bit of extra power for very brief periods.

In my opinion, the only way to claim greater efficiency from a hybrid is to get your energy from something other than diesel fuel such as an enormous amount of solar or wind or shore power. These hybrids are really more similar to electric drives with a small generator for range extension. Diesel propulsion in sailboats is really not too bad as it stands if you accept that internal combustion engines have poor efficiency regardless.
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