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Dean101 02-22-2012 08:58 PM

NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000
 
Ok, I'm a little confused by these. I'm 90% sure they are communication "languages" that allow different electronic devices communicate and share information with one another. I'm up to 99% sure that NMEA 2000 supercedes the 0183. Now for a few questions.

1. Does NMEA 2000 work with older 0183 devices?

2. How much longer will 0183 be good for?

3. Is there a significant performance difference or just a difference in how they are connected?

4. Is there a good source I can read to better understand NMEA and how different systems can be hooked together so it all works together with one display but can still operate independently in case of failure in a single device?

5. Am I the only person in the world who doesn't understand this stuff?:eek:

I'm not very electronicly inclined so speak very s l o w l y please!:o

Melrna 02-22-2012 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean101 (Post 835558)
Ok, I'm a little confused by these. I'm 90% sure they are communication "languages" that allow different electronic devices communicate and share information with one another. I'm up to 99% sure that NMEA 2000 supercedes the 0183. Now for a few questions.

1. Does NMEA 2000 work with older 0183 devices?
Depends on the equipment installed. Most manufactures have dual or triple ways to connect. If they don't you can get a converter box. Most 1083 cannot read 2000. Raymarine uses their own system called Seatalk. Having said that though most instruments can read 1083 and few can read 2000,

2. How much longer will 0183 be good for?
[COLOR="Blue"]From the Miami boat show it is on it's way out due to the new equipment coming out with blue tooth and Wifi connections. Raymarine with the new E7 and soon E-9 and E12. SimRad group is coming out with their new line-up this spring.

3. Is there a significant performance difference or just a difference in how they are connected?
Both from what I can see. NMEA 2000 is is linear in their connections while NMEA 0183 is daisy chain in their backbone connections with each other.

4. Is there a good source I can read to better understand NMEA and how different systems can be hooked together so it all works together with one display but can still operate independently in case of failure in a single device
It depends on how the system is wired. Most are daisy chained. So if one system fails it CAN take out the whole system or partial lost of some. The advantage of the NMEA 2000 is that if one system goes down the rest can still function.
5. Am I the only person in the world who doesn't understand this stuff?:eek:
This is only my vague understand of it all.

I'm not very electronicly inclined so speak very s l o w l y please!:o

Hope that helps.

BarryL 02-22-2012 11:31 PM

Hey,

NMEA 0183 and 2000 are completely different. They are not 'languages' but really specify the electrical connection between two (or more) devices. NMEA 0183 is like serial communications that old computers used. NMEA 2000 is more like Ethernet networking.

The two are not interoperable at all.

Most DEVICES (plotters, radios, etc.) that can accept NMEA 2000 INPUT will also accept NMEA 0183, but this is because the device will have two or more communication powers.

NMEA 0183 is an old standard that has been around for a long time and will continue to be around for a long time. It is simple and cheap. It is designed so ONE piece of equipment (TALKER) to communicate to another piece of equipment (LISTENER). For example, a DSC VHF radio can obtain GPS location position from a GPS, or a wind speed and direction instrument can send information to a chart plotter with GPS speed so the plotter can calculate TRUE wind information. The information can only flow from one device to another device. You can't connect multiple devices NMEA 0183 device together unless you add additional gear (multiplexor). NMEA is SLOW (2400 baud typically) and requires you to connect little tiny wires.

NMEA 2000 is a newer standard that supports true networking. Think of computer networking where there can be multiple devices all communicating at the same time and to each other. With a NMEA 2000 network there is a network backbone (wire) that ALL devices connect too. You can have a GPS sending location information, water speed transducer sending speed through water information, wind instruments, AIS, Autopilot, etc. It is simple to add displays that allow you see whatever information you want. To add another NMEA device all you need to do is plug it in to the network and it starts working immediately.

Some additional tidbits:
Raymarine used to have a non-standard interface called SeaTalk. This is now obsolete as Raymarine has gone to SeaTalkNG (Next Generation) which is really just NMEA2000.

A good place to learn more about boat electronics is the Panbo Blog run by Ben Ellison. Visit it here:
Panbo: The Marine Electronics Weblog

My own opinion is that if you just want a simple system, say chart plotter with GPS connected to DSC VHF radio, then NMEA 0183 is fine. If you want something more involved, say you want an autopilot that can get information from the plotter, and you want to add wind and boat speed through water as well, you are better off with NMEA 2000.

Barry

Dean101 02-26-2012 03:37 AM

Thanks for the responses. Very informative. I've read in a few threads here that people have put together what sounds to me like pretty elaborate navigation and monitoring networks.

I don't have enough experience to know exactly what type of electronics I would actually need for what I intend to do but I'm sure I will go for a chartplotter and radio at the minimum. Since I will be mostly singlehanding, AIS strikes me as a useful tool, and possibly a simple radar package.

It seems to me that having information from all devices available at the helm as well as a good monitoring system for engine status would be pretty handy for those times when I would need to remain on deck. I like the idea of being able to display and manipulate everything from a single MFD rather than having a huge spread of instruments in front of me complete with airbag!

svzephyr44 02-26-2012 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryL (Post 835609)
You can't connect multiple devices NMEA 0183 device together unless you add additional gear (multiplexor). NMEA is SLOW (2400 baud typically) and requires you to connect little tiny wires.
Barry

Barry's information is mostly correct. NMEA 0183 was defined in 1983 (wow.) It operates at 4800 baud, eight bits, one stop bit, no parity. Except for high speed NMEA which is used only for AIS connections.

A NMEA Talker can power 4 NMEA listeners. A NMEA listener can only listen to one talker.

The big problem with 0183 is that people like Raymarine decided to violate the standard that says anything a listener hears needs to be repeated on the talker side of the instrument. They did this so they could sell expensive and unnecessary "conversion" boxes.

As pointed out above NMEA 2000 is the new standard. Usually manufacturers don't repeat NMEA 2000 data onto NMEA 0183 outputs. What does this mean. Well, lets say you purchase a NMEA 2000 wind instrument but have a NMEA 0183 multi-function display. Guess what, the NMEA 2000 wind data will not show up on the NMEA 0183 multi-function display. They do, however, usually repeat NMEA 0183 data on the NMEA 2000 bus. So if you buy a NMEA 0183 wind instrument and a NMEA 2000 multi-function display the wind data might show up on the the multi-function display. Confused yet?

Simple rule. If you have old instruments that communicate on NMEA 0183 you probably want to get new instruments that will talk NMEA 0183. If you are getting new instruments then go with NMEA 2000.

BTW most chart plotters talk both, but again the rub is what the rest of your instruments will display. The good news is that the tech support people at Garmin etc. are pretty good about telling you what will happen if you call them up and say "I have these specific instruments wired together like this."

Last comment to make it even more confusing: Back in the dark ages (yesterday) all of the manufacturers had proprietary communication protocols - Raymarine had SeaTalk, SeaTalk2, HSI, and a couple of others. None of these talk to NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 without a converter box.

You may start drinking heavily now. :)

Fair winds and following seas.

Dean101 02-26-2012 11:08 PM

Yes, I think a stiff drink is in order!:hammer

Iliana 05-22-2014 10:51 AM

Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000
 
Hi all,
I read the answer of svzephyr44 and I would like to ask sth similar.
I have a ship, which has NMEA 0183 protocol in the bridge systems. And another vessel with NMEA2000. Should I use a different NMEA reader (0183 and 2000 respectively) for every case, or I can use the same?
What should I look into, in order to be sure that I will be compatible?
Any product suggestions?
Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by svzephyr44 (Post 837177)
Barry's information is mostly correct. NMEA 0183 was defined in 1983 (wow.) It operates at 4800 baud, eight bits, one stop bit, no parity. Except for high speed NMEA which is used only for AIS connections.

A NMEA Talker can power 4 NMEA listeners. A NMEA listener can only listen to one talker.

The big problem with 0183 is that people like Raymarine decided to violate the standard that says anything a listener hears needs to be repeated on the talker side of the instrument. They did this so they could sell expensive and unnecessary "conversion" boxes.

As pointed out above NMEA 2000 is the new standard. Usually manufacturers don't repeat NMEA 2000 data onto NMEA 0183 outputs. What does this mean. Well, lets say you purchase a NMEA 2000 wind instrument but have a NMEA 0183 multi-function display. Guess what, the NMEA 2000 wind data will not show up on the NMEA 0183 multi-function display. They do, however, usually repeat NMEA 0183 data on the NMEA 2000 bus. So if you buy a NMEA 0183 wind instrument and a NMEA 2000 multi-function display the wind data might show up on the the multi-function display. Confused yet?

Simple rule. If you have old instruments that communicate on NMEA 0183 you probably want to get new instruments that will talk NMEA 0183. If you are getting new instruments then go with NMEA 2000.

BTW most chart plotters talk both, but again the rub is what the rest of your instruments will display. The good news is that the tech support people at Garmin etc. are pretty good about telling you what will happen if you call them up and say "I have these specific instruments wired together like this."

Last comment to make it even more confusing: Back in the dark ages (yesterday) all of the manufacturers had proprietary communication protocols - Raymarine had SeaTalk, SeaTalk2, HSI, and a couple of others. None of these talk to NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 without a converter box.

You may start drinking heavily now. :)

Fair winds and following seas.


eherlihy 05-22-2014 12:24 PM

Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000
 
I could write a book in an attempt to answer the original post...
Short answer: NMEA 0183 and NMEA 2000 are Protocols, much like EIA 422 and Ethernet are protocols. And, there is a follow on protocol called NEMA OneNet. They are each run over different media, and at different rates. NMEA 2000 is based on the automotive CAN Bus, which has been used extensively in every vehicle built since the mid '90s (controls: fuel injection, instrument gauges, and more functions). You CAN buy NMEA 0183 to 2000 gateways.

You can read the NMEA 0183 standard here; NMEA

And, you can read the NMEA 2000 standard here: NMEA

Finally, you can read about OneNet here; http://www.nmea.org/Assets/20130628%...%20summary.pdf

MarkSF 05-22-2014 12:32 PM

Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000
 
I have an NMEA 2000 network with a Lowrance HDS 5 chartplotter, Garmin/Airmar DST800 sensor, Garmin GMI 10 display, and Simrad wind instrument.

The Simrad is Simnet, which is NMEA 2000 but with a proprietary cabling system. I think Seatalk NG is the same deal. They are actually both major improvements when it comes to ease and flexibility of cabling. The Simnet and NMEA2000 co-exist just fine (Simnet network is plugged into the NMEA 2000 backplane)

Is is indeed very easy to share info. For example, when I added the wind instrument it immediately recognised and used the heading and speed data to calculate true wind.

I did run into one "gotcha" : some manufacturers use proprietary calibrations, which may not be supported by others. For example, the Lowrance does not have a calibration for the speed paddle. I had to add the Garmin GMI 10 so I could calibrate it. Conclusion : be careful when mixing manufacturers.

SVAuspicious 05-22-2014 10:20 PM

Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000
 
VHF radio manufacturers have been slow to implement NMEA 2000. Almost all still use NMEA 0183.


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