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  #11  
Old 02-24-2012
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Oh no, not another anchor thread!

I have a 65# cqr with 200' of chain behind it. It seems to hold my 29,000# boat just fine.

People have very strong feelings about ground tackle, I think the best advice is to have more than one and to have different types onboard for different bottom conditions. I agree that you should have much more chain than you are proposing, I prefer an all chain rode, you may always use a piece of nylon with a spliced eye and a carabiner as a snubber should you have the need.

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  #12  
Old 02-24-2012
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Rocna or Manson Supreme with more chain. 30 feet minimum for all the reasons above. Carry a backup anchor
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  #13  
Old 02-24-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
You're kidding, right?
No - care to elaborate?
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  #14  
Old 02-24-2012
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My boat has similar specs to yours (28' & ~8000lbs) and I use a 33lbs Bruce (Lewmar Claw, actually) with 25' of chain. I've never dragged. I also carry an 18lbs Danforth as a secondary. I prefer to oversize my ground tackle so I sleep better at night. The 33 pounder was the biggest I could get back on deck without a windlass. Wasn't it Dashew who said your dock neighbors should laugh at the immense size of your anchor when you carry it down the dock?

So, if you're on a budget but want more holding power than the hook that came with your Pearson, go for a Bruce. If money is no object, the Manson Supreme seems to be the anchor of choice.
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  #15  
Old 02-25-2012
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Danforth type anchors hold best in sand and mud. They also have, by far the greatest holding power power per pound. Bruce and manson type anchors have less holding power but thier detla like spade has a better likelihood of digging into a grass or rocky bottom. They also have far faster reset time when the boat veers. Fortress' advantage is that it's light and can be disassembled. So I have three... fortress for sand/mud bottoms and storm power. A bruce for overnights in more crowded anchorages and an old northill (like folding fishermans anchor) for rocky or kelp bottoms. Northills are rare I think serious cruisers like a heave folding or disassembleable fishermans anchor for their storm anchor. I keep two on the bow (Bruce and Fortress) each with its own rode in a split locker. Manufacturers make recommendations on chain for chain/rope rhodes. A rule of thumb has been chain equal to the length of your boat. Hanging a "killet" on the anchor rode about halfway down increases holding power and also allows a short scope in crowded anchorages. An old standby on the subject is Earl Heintz's book the complete guide to anchoring. It's dated info on anchor types. When going thru the calculations I found that the weak link was the deck cleat and I needed to replace it with a four bolt cleat and a good backing plate.
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  #16  
Old 02-25-2012
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I mostly day sail with the occasional overnight. I have used a Fortress for many years with 25 ft of chain and 250 ft of rope. Everything is one size over the recommended tackle for a 30 ft boat.

My next boat I might upgrade to a Rocna/Manson (one is crap the other is fantastic, can't remember one from the other lol).

The problem I have is watching the CQR, Delta, Bruce, Bullwaga, Rocna, Manson and who knows what sagas. Every time a new anchor comes out it's the greatest thing since the invention of the chrome pole until the next one comes out then it's absolute shite.

If you really do anchor in mud most of the time then I think the Fortress is for you. Unless you want to carry two styles of anchor (not a bad idea to have a second anchor).

edit: I should add that in my case, if I am not comfortable with the anchoring conditions I will rent a mooring or get a slip. I'm not cruising full time so it won't kill my budget.

Last edited by RobGallagher; 02-25-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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  #17  
Old 02-25-2012
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OP
"I normally anchor in mud, but who knows what I may find. My current set-up is a no name danforth style anchor with 5 feet of chain (coated) and 200 feet of 7/16 3-strand nylon, which came with the boat. I figure that this is the minimum set-up for normal conditions. I would like to add a more robust system giving me more confidence that I'm secure when the wind gets up unexpectedly in the middle of the night.p.s.
I'm now over 68 and not as robust as in the past and have to be able to handle the anchor alone. "
John,
Suggest if your current "no name danforth style" anchor is properly sized that you extend chain to approx. 30' and use when you
anchor in known good bottom in benign conditions for afternoon.
Will be easier to handle than below suggest...
Also suggest you go with Manson Supreme 25 for other situations
...questionable bottom, unsettled weather, overnight.

Reason for going against conventional wisdom and basicly using a
lunch hook (your current set up plus more chain) is that your
biggest problem with the Manson Supreme will come when it comes
time to haul back on board by hand...it sticks good...something you don't want to do every day...but something you will be happy to do after a rough night and it has done its job.

Above is based on my experience on my 30', (8500#)in mostly sand and mud, with danforth and 50' chain up to 30 kts consistant wind...if questionable weather/several days anch out comes Delta 35
Above may help keep you on the water for years to come...
or maybe you can angle for a windlass for your next birthday!
Best,
Hugo

hopefully replacing danforth with Manson Supreme 25 this spring
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  #18  
Old 02-25-2012
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Slightly off the original topic but still worth discussing is the length of chain that you use. Many of the posters have suggested that more chain will increase the holding power of your anchor but I don't agree with this in most practical circumstances. Having an all chain rode is ideal if your boat can take the weight because of chain's resistance to chafe but it won't help in ultimate holding power.

The vast majority of the time, the ultimate holding power of your setup is not an issue, the force on the rode goes up as approximately the square of the windspeed. Taking a design load of 1500 lbs for the OP's boat, that likely equates to 60 knot steady winds or even more depending on the sea state. During a breezy day, the load is more likely to be on the order of 2-300 lbs max. On these days, the weight of the chain will improve catenary which helps holding power and provide a bit of shock absorption. However, on the days where the ultimate holding power of the anchor is tested, the chain will be essentially a straight line. Another benefit on the calmer days is a reduced swing circle provided that it matches the other boats around you.

There is only 1 way for the chain to increase the ultimate holding power of the anchor and that is by changing the angle of pull on the anchor. In calmer conditions, chain achieves this through catenary. However, in extreme conditions, the chain is straight and it provides the same angle of pull as a piece of line. In these conditions, the only way to change the angle of pull is to increase scope. A good measure of whether there is sufficient scope is whether there is always at least 1 link of chain laying on the seabed. Since chain can only transmit force in tension and not bending, if even only 1 link is lying on the bottom, then the angle of pull is as low as it can be. In truly extreme situations, even this is not possible.

There are also 2 ways that a rode can lower the loads on the anchor for given conditions making it less likely that you will drag. The first way is by damping out dynamic loads that occur as the boat moves around. Chain does a very poor job of this in extreme situations because it is essentially already stretched to its maximum by being in a straight line and has no more give. Nylon line is an excellent shock absorber whether it is employed in a mixed rode or as a snubber. The other way to decrease the pull on the anchor is by the rode acting as an anchor itself and having resistance in the bottom. While it sounds like this should be a big benefit, it has been shown that there is almost no increase in holding power. Recently, I dragged 50' of 3/4" chain across a gravel parking lot and through the mud by hand and I am certainly no Hulk Hogan and this was big chain. Additionally, it must be remembered that in extreme conditions, the chain is not in contact with the bottom anyways.

You do need to keep enough chain in the rode to help the anchor set initially. Anchors set at relatively low loads so it does not take that much chain to keep the last few links on the bottom. In the OP's case 20' would probably be fine for all situations.

I hope that I have convinced you that during conditions where ultimate holding power matters, chain will not significantly increase it. The only way to increase holding power is by going to a bigger or different style anchor. To keep the shock loads down on your ground tackle, you should either use a mixed rode or a snubber. There are very good reasons to use more chain or all chain such as chafe resistance. Personally, I feel that mixed rodes are the best option for smaller boats that don't anchor in coral and all chain rodes are best for larger cruising boats. Like everything in boating, it is a balancing act but the weight should be put into the anchor not the rode.
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  #19  
Old 02-25-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klem View Post
Slightly off the original topic but still worth discussing is the length of chain that you use. Many of the posters have suggested that more chain will increase the holding power of your anchor but I don't agree with this in most practical circumstances. Having an all chain rode is ideal if your boat can take the weight because of chain's resistance to chafe but it won't help in ultimate holding power.

The vast majority of the time, the ultimate holding power of your setup is not an issue, the force on the rode goes up as approximately the square of the windspeed. Taking a design load of 1500 lbs for the OP's boat, that likely equates to 60 knot steady winds or even more depending on the sea state. During a breezy day, the load is more likely to be on the order of 2-300 lbs max. On these days, the weight of the chain will improve catenary which helps holding power and provide a bit of shock absorption. However, on the days where the ultimate holding power of the anchor is tested, the chain will be essentially a straight line. Another benefit on the calmer days is a reduced swing circle provided that it matches the other boats around you.

There is only 1 way for the chain to increase the ultimate holding power of the anchor and that is by changing the angle of pull on the anchor. In calmer conditions, chain achieves this through catenary. However, in extreme conditions, the chain is straight and it provides the same angle of pull as a piece of line. In these conditions, the only way to change the angle of pull is to increase scope. A good measure of whether there is sufficient scope is whether there is always at least 1 link of chain laying on the seabed. Since chain can only transmit force in tension and not bending, if even only 1 link is lying on the bottom, then the angle of pull is as low as it can be. In truly extreme situations, even this is not possible.

There are also 2 ways that a rode can lower the loads on the anchor for given conditions making it less likely that you will drag. The first way is by damping out dynamic loads that occur as the boat moves around. Chain does a very poor job of this in extreme situations because it is essentially already stretched to its maximum by being in a straight line and has no more give. Nylon line is an excellent shock absorber whether it is employed in a mixed rode or as a snubber. The other way to decrease the pull on the anchor is by the rode acting as an anchor itself and having resistance in the bottom. While it sounds like this should be a big benefit, it has been shown that there is almost no increase in holding power. Recently, I dragged 50' of 3/4" chain across a gravel parking lot and through the mud by hand and I am certainly no Hulk Hogan and this was big chain. Additionally, it must be remembered that in extreme conditions, the chain is not in contact with the bottom anyways.

You do need to keep enough chain in the rode to help the anchor set initially. Anchors set at relatively low loads so it does not take that much chain to keep the last few links on the bottom. In the OP's case 20' would probably be fine for all situations.

I hope that I have convinced you that during conditions where ultimate holding power matters, chain will not significantly increase it. The only way to increase holding power is by going to a bigger or different style anchor. To keep the shock loads down on your ground tackle, you should either use a mixed rode or a snubber. There are very good reasons to use more chain or all chain such as chafe resistance. Personally, I feel that mixed rodes are the best option for smaller boats that don't anchor in coral and all chain rodes are best for larger cruising boats. Like everything in boating, it is a balancing act but the weight should be put into the anchor not the rode.
Agreed. I LOVE chain, but I love it for being able to have less scope out and thus fit into a crowded anchorage. I also think it has benefit in helping an anchor reset as wind and current change. I believe it does this by keeping the pull angle very low as the boat swings around its anchor.

I totally agree though that it doesn't help much with ultimate holding power. More so I agree that too much emphasis is put on ultimate holding power when ease/quickness of setting and ability to reset have more real-world value.

I'm a big fan of the Fortress for example and used it as my primary for 100+ nights in a long cruise up the inside passage. It takes more skill to set and be sure it's set than a Bruce or other types though. It also doesn't set quickly where you drop it (as my Bruce does). This can be problematic in a tight spot such as when you stern-tie, or are trying to fit into a crowded anchorage. When stern tying it doesn't do you any good to have the anchor set 2 boat lengths closer to shore than you wanted. Part of my problem though, may have been that I used 55' of chain, when you're supposed to used 6' only on the fortress and initial setting on short scope is also recommended, which I didn't do.

MedSailor
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  #20  
Old 02-25-2012
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I think the all chain question is easy on a larger boat with a windlass. On a smaller boat - 27' in my case and a bit lighter than the original poster's boat - a combination chain/nylon rode is best where the weight is put into the anchor for best setting and ultimate holding power.
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