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john232 11-11-2003 12:59 AM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
Hardware, sails, engine parts, insurance, slip fees, plumbing, maintainence, holy snikeeeees! How do you guys afford to live or is there a such thing as life after sailing. I need to just replace the engine, (or rebuild it) and buy a keel and install it on my 1980 Santana 30 that I won on a salvage auction a few weeks ago for 500.00 bucks. I was lucky because all the sails, rigging, wood work, plumbing, and upolstery and roller furling are in excellent condition and the deck and hull looks like it just rolled off the assembly line. But when I started looking at prices for engine parts, electical and reefer up grades and such, I about crapped my pants. My household income is about 85,000 a year and I am learning very quickly that boats and I mean nice boats are expensive.

GordMay 11-11-2003 01:29 AM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
Just reread your original posting, and noted that, aside from the $3000 Keel and $2000 Transport charges, your original budget included mostly "Mickey Mouse" items.
I hope you didn''t expect to invest about $10,000 on top of your $500 capital expenditure!
Yep, "stuff" is expensive, and good stuff more so.
If you spend up to the boat''s "Bristol" market value, and contribute your labour (free) - you''ll have done well. You''ll also have a great boat, that you know inside-out. It''s just as likely that you''ll spend more - and still have a great boat.
Good luck & regards,

Jeff_H 11-11-2003 02:45 AM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
No kidding.....We tried to warn you. You still may be way ahead to parts the boat out and find a boat that is intact. As I explained in response to your original post, in absolutely perfect shape, these boats have a selling somewhere betweem $15,000 and $20K. Most would sell somewhere close to $15K. Perfectly restored but having been sunk, yours has a value well under $15K, if you disclose that she was sunk. These boats were of mediocre build quality and compared to slightly more modern, non-IOR era designs offered poor sailing ability. They are no longer competitive as race boats and are not exactly good cruisers as well.

If you are going to spend the time and effort involved in putting this boat back together in a manner that does not look cobbled up, not to mention the considerable expenses (which parts alone will well exceed the value of the boat), I would strongly suggest that you pick a more worthy design as a project boat. To me, nothing is sadder than some one lavishing years of thier life into fixing up a medocre or worse design. At this point you may be able to parts out the boat and perhaps come out even. Once you start down the road of a new engine and engine beds, electrical fixtures wiring and panels, refrigeration equipment, instrumentation, new keel and rudder you will have a lot more money invested in the boat than you could go out and buy a good boat for and besides you could be out sailing instead breathing epoxy fumes.


john232 11-11-2003 04:11 AM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
Jeff says "They are no longer competitive as race boats and are not exactly good cruisers as well. Jeff I beg to differ on you opinion about the S30 not being a decent cruiser. The boat has modest beam (10ft) it has a tall rig (41ft) modest displacement (8000lbs) the specs are:
I 41
E 10.83
J 13.58
P 473.3
Also the 3800lb keel should give the boat good stability in the weather. For a 20 plus year old boat I was amazed that the hull had zero nata bit of blister or osmosis and the deck is much stronger than the J 30 I sailed on last year, and there was no core intrusion, or delamination, of any kind, any where. Also the wood work inside was not just thrown together and all the bulkheads were glassed in place (NOT TABBED) the joinery is done very well, the lazzerette is deep and functional and the wheel steering system seems to be very functional, and the roller furling is always a big plus as is the flawless appearance of the gel coat. All the life lines and stantions are solid and the anchor locker is huge. I just don''t think a person could ask for much more out of a 20 plus year old performance cruiser. Also I thought that Schock Corp. was a pretty good builder since they have built alot of nice boats over the years and were infact one of the FIRST fiberglass builders in the USA and were even contracted to build the famous Tartan 27 back some 35 years ago and the new Schock 40 is on the leading edge of technology with canting keel and carbon fiber technology and is also winning lots of races. Anyway, I am rambling now, but I have kind of grown fond of this little cruiser and would be interested to know what you have to sail? Also I kind of feel that I can critisize my boat all I want but just like my Wife, I kind of get all hot and bothered when some stranger tells me my boat sucks, or is not much good for anything but scrapping. I feel this boat is at least as good and most likely better than some of the late 70s early 80s boats like the Catalina 30 or pearson 30, or hunter 30 or Tartan 30. Anyway I am pretty happy so far and I think this boat is turning out to be just what I want at this time in my life. Later

paulmcquillan 11-11-2003 06:21 AM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
Regardless of what model boat you have in mind, I personllay think that rule #1 is:
--thou shall not buy a beater.

Boats that sail well mostly go down in value due to deffered maintenance, and to a lesser extent to changing styles. (IMHO)

We looked for a boat that was:
structurally sound,
well cared for engine;
original nav electronics were prefered (scrap & replace w new),
no major project larger than a new electrical system.

What we got was all of that, and still ended up putting $24k into new roller bearing blocks, genoa cars, running rigging, roller furling, chainplates, mast wiring, nav lights, integrated electronics, radar and more.

The result is that we were back sailing within two months after taking delivery, and three years later the boat is still fantastic.

Yes, the upgrades continue. but my project list keeps getting shorter and is managable. The appraised & insured value is over 2x what we paid for her.

sailingfool 11-11-2003 11:54 AM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
54 Attachment(s)

Once again I''ll provide the dark cloud.

It''s great that you''re happy about this boat, beacuse it sure seems like you are lining yourself up to learn in spades why boats are often described as a hole in the water into which one pours money.
If you went out and bought one of these apples of your eye, mint and sail away for $20K, and get a good condition, usable boat that you can enjoy right away, you would still have to learn that lession, because the operation and maintenance of any boat is painful $$$ at best, but that''s what it takes to pay for our pleasures.
Your situation is that you have no clue as to how big the hole is that you need to fill with money, and no assurance that when you''re done, if you ever get done, you''ll get even half of it back when you sell the boat, if you are able sell it.
So don''t snap at folks kindly offering you sage advice, in a more polite way than I. I''d agree the Santana 30 is sort of a cute boat, although not equal to the marvelous Tartan 30, and probably not as well built as a Pearson 30, and definately not one to approach with an open wallet, unless your resources have no bottom.
As I said before, the best one can hope for in buying a boat is to actually get what one pays for - the open question remains whether your $500 was well spent...

Good luck and keep up posted on progress...

Jeff_H 11-11-2003 06:32 PM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
Let me see if that I have this straight, even though you have never sailed on one you are convinced that the Schock 30 is a good cruiser. Even though the rating on these boats boats are nearly 60 seconds a mile slower than a J-30 or Kirby 30 you somehow think that these are equivilent race boats. Even though you don''t know enough about boat construction to know that a bulkhead that is fiberglassed-in is ''Tabbed'' (because that is what tabbing means) you are sure that Schocks must be well made boats that are somehow you think that they are of equivillent quality to a late 70''s Pearson 30, Hunter 30 or Tartan 30. Any even though you start this tread saying that you can''t believe how expensive it is to put a boat back together so you are clearly not on an unlimited budget, I am somehow the villian for failing to realize that you have bonded so deeply in the week or so that you have owned this turkey and having assisted in numerous efforts to rebuild old boats, and therefore tried to rescue you from yourself by pointing out to you that you have bought a boat with a reputation several notches below a Hunter of the same era and are planning to put more money in the boat than it can ever possibly be worth.

I guess it is like this. A divorsed friend of mine used to tell a story that her former mother-in-law never approved of her. Whenever her ex-husband would ask his mother how she liked his wife, the mother-in-law would say, ''It doesn''t matter. As long as you are happy that is what counts.''

I guess that all I can say to you is "Good luck and as long as you are happy that is what counts." You are clearly too in live with your hulk to listen to anything else.


john232 11-11-2003 11:24 PM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
Jeeeessee!!! Jeff, What gives?? TABBED in my dictionary means TABBED, which is different than laminating every edge of the bulkhead seam to the hull thereby making the bulkhead and hull as one unified piece. Tabbing is like spot welding a seam where laminating all seams would be like welding the whole seam as to marry the two parts. Sometimes tabbing is done by just bracing certain sections of the bulkhead with screws and metal L shaped support brackets, big difference than a whole laminated bulkhead. Next I don''t care to race this boat, Did I say I dont care to race this boat. Now that you understand that, I am putting this boat together to sail it in the Gulf coast in a few years. Also I don''t see how I will end up upside down on this boat when so far I only have about 3,000$s in this boat and since the engine looks like its going to be in satisfactory condition then the only thing I need to do is spend 3,000$s for the keel and re laminate the rudder get a new shaft support bracket and paint the bottom of the boat and put about 500.00 into electrical work and I am sailing for around 6,550 to 7,500 dollars, and last I checked a 1980 Santana 30 was going for between 21K and 25K and those boats did not have wheel steering package that was a 1.8K option in 1977 and a modernized wing keel (which will be ready in 6 weeks from Mars Keels in Canada) and roller furling and propane stove and oven. I REALLY DON''T SEE HOW I CAN BE GETTING SCREWED WHEN ALL MY SAILING FRIENDS HAVE BEEN TELLING ME I GOT ONE HELL OF A DEAL. And they were all sceptical untill they saw how well this boat has been taken care of by the previous owner.

Jeff_H 11-12-2003 01:48 AM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
As long as you are happy, that is all that counts.

sailingfool 11-12-2003 03:58 AM

YIKES!!!!! 30+ foot boats are expensive!!
54 Attachment(s)
This tread started with replacing the engine, now it''s ok?
To understand how you can get screwed, you need to appreciate your lack of knowledge about the matters of which you speak. Having answerted your question, let''s focus on going forward in a positive manner.
If you want to manage the risk of getting screwed, you should get professional advice to ballpark the costs of putting this boat together. Have the boat surveyed, and then have an experienced yard manager quote in detail the cost for a yard to do the work involved. Using his parts costs and a realistic evaluation of what you can do properly yourself, and put in a fudge factor of two for any work you won''t do yourself, then you make some form of informed decision before starting to write checks, so you at least know how many you will be writing.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

PS - if you''re going to sail this boat in the Gulf, why limit it''s sailing performance with a winged keel? I''m not familar with the Gulf, but didn''t think it a Bahams-like area. Did you get the advice of a marine architect on the configuration of this keel so it best maintains the handling and stability of the boat, or are you so-to-speak winging it?

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