Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top - SailNet Community
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post #1 of 11 Old 03-06-2012 Thread Starter
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Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

Now I've seen the many options and Maine Sails specific epoxy filled plug method, but they assume there is a core to drill, fill and protect...

On my boat there is a 1" hollow space between cabin roof and inner liner...

I understand "thru bolting" is the prefered method of attachment, but with the hollow core, I'm worried the inner and outer liners will compress and I won't be able to get a good seal, not to mention, even with washer or backing plate, I'm really only held on by one 1/4" layer of fiberglass...?

Whats a fellow to do...? Drill a 1" hole from the bottom up, fill gap by adding a wood plug, drill thru and then use an even larger backing plate on the interior...then I'm still only being held by the 5/16" outer liner...?? If that's the case I think I may just drill the 1" holes on the inner liner, thru bolt and washer to the outer liner and put the plastic plugs on the interior...

Thing is, I have 14 attachments on the grab rails, the 4 on the cam cleats I want to add and another 4 on the deck organizer/blocks I want to install...That's a lot of bolt heads in the cabin ceiling...

"Might as well take 'er out...If anything is gonna happen...It's gonna happen out there..."
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post #2 of 11 Old 03-06-2012
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

What you are calling the outer liner(cabin roof) on an AMF PY26 is your cabin top and is cored with balsa. You need to pot those holes if you are penetrating that layer.

You can simply cut round access holes in the inner liner to install the parts from above, use decent backing plates and fill the holes with some plugs. You can buy liner plugs just for this purpose. I would not thru bolt it thru the inner liner.

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Last edited by Tim R.; 03-06-2012 at 05:57 PM.
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post #3 of 11 Old 03-06-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

Well, yes and no...seems different sections of the cabin top have different compositions...

Here you can see the Single Block I want to replace with a double...and just below it (to starboard) the "patched" holes where the old grab rail was...



What threw me is from below, the four bolt holes for the block show a "hollow" space between inner and outer layers...



But I did drill a test hole 6"-8" over where the Grab Rail goes, and it "IS" core filled and able to be drilled and filled per MS...

I'll just have to do the washer and Plugs on the block mounts...

And wait and see what I have where the Cam Cleats are going to go...

"Might as well take 'er out...If anything is gonna happen...It's gonna happen out there..."
"Captin Ron"

Last edited by Squidd; 03-06-2012 at 06:23 PM.
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post #4 of 11 Old 03-06-2012
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

Your deck moulding is in all likelihood going to be balsa cored where ever you look except possibly the cabin sides. Whether the inner liner is bonded to the deck structure will probably depend where on the boat you're checking out. To change that block, I'd be looking for a stacked double with the same footprint - you might avoid drilling extra holes in that case. However if you want to spread them out, or add handrails as you suggest you're going to be sealing cored areas AND dealing with any distances between deck and liner.. these are two different things.

For a major change like turning blocks, in order to properly use backing plates I'd be tempted to cut out a section of the liner and then make up a cover plate to close it up afterwards. They could be screwed in place but even velcro would work and might look cleaner (and offer easier future access)

For the handrails you're implying that the deck/liner separation is minimal if any, you may get away with throughbolting there but there's always a risk of crushing/cracking the liner. You can get snap in plugs to fill drilled holes, so maybe that's something to consider - drill say 1" holes where the handrail bolts are going to be, use flathead machine screws up into nuts buried and plugged in the handrail (no protrusion below that way) and then plug the liner holes with a nice decorative bung. That might also allow an oversized washer at least.

Ron

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post #5 of 11 Old 03-06-2012
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

Squidd you could use SS strap with the 2 holes drilled in it. then fish it in one hole and across to the other it would become a sort of inside backing plate. Did you have plastic plugs for the existing holes in the liner? Parts over the head area of my boat are about the same as your showing.

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post #6 of 11 Old 03-06-2012
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

It may just be me, but in reading the responses in this thread, I find it has not been made clear to the OP what is actually going on with his mouldings.

The "outer moulding" referred to is, I believe, the deck moulding and is most likely cored. The "inner" moulding is the interior liner, not actually part of the deck.

The hardware should be mounted to the deck or "outer" moulding and shouldn't sandwich the liner between the hardware & backing plate or washers. On my boat there are places where the liner has several inches of space between it and the hull or deck - trying to cinch that together while bolting down a piece of hardware would be a surefire path to damage - cracked liner or something.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.

Last edited by SloopJonB; 03-07-2012 at 10:31 AM.
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post #7 of 11 Old 03-06-2012
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

I've always taken care of the gap between the deck molding and the inner liner using hand moldable epoxy putty. Drill your holes from the outside. Use a hole saw to open the hole in the inner liner to 5/8" or so. Push a ball of epoxy putty through the 5/8" hole, and it spreads out to a hard round pad around 2" in diameter. Leave it slightly higher than the inner surface, and trim it off with a sharp chisel before it gets real hard. Redrill the hole though from the outside for the bolt. Use a large washer or backing plate against the liner. It is quicker to do than it is to write.

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post #8 of 11 Old 03-07-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

I agree that I do not want to clamp or bolt thru a "hollow" space between the two layers...

What I have found is I have two different compositions on the cabin roof in two different areas...(haven't dug into the third yet)

Where the block(s) are located there is only a 3/8" layer of glass on the exterior...a 1" hollow...and a 1/4" glass inner liner...There I will drill the 1" holes in inner liner, and use nut washer on outer layer and then plastic plugs on inside...

Where the old rails were/new rails going...it is solid 1" core between two layers of glass and no "third inner layer"... There I will hollow out and fill with epoxy per MS suggestion and "thru bolt" from inside with nut burried in rail...

I'm going to drill into where the cam cleats go today, so I will let you know what I find there...

I ran into this in the bulkhead where the instruments are mounted...half had solid core and half was hollow...Gauges have lighter mounting pressure so I wasn't worried about "crushing" the bulkhead...

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post #9 of 11 Old 03-07-2012
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
It may just be me, but in reading the responses in this thread, I find it has not been made clear to the OP what is actually going on with his mouldings.

The "outer moulding" referred to is, I believe, the deck moulding and is most likely cored. The "inner" moulding is the interior liner, not actually part of the deck.

The hardware should be mounted to the deck or "outer" moulding and shouldn't sandwich the liner between the hardware & backing plate or washers. On my boat there are places where the liner has several inches of space between it and the hull or deck - trying to cinch that together while bolting down a piece of hardware would be a surefire patch to damage - cracked liner or something.
Hmmm, sounds vaguely familiar.

Tim R.
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post #10 of 11 Old 03-07-2012
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Re: Adding Grab rails and Cam Cleats to Cabin Top

Can one assume that the inside liner can not be removed? My ceiling lining/covering is removable, so I then have access to the bolt, do not need the holes in the inner lining etc. Yeah it takes a few minutes to remove it, ie removing some trim that hides the screws holding the liner, once off, I have free access to all deck/cabin top nuts and bolts etc.

Marty

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