Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market... - Page 11 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree71Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #101  
Old 08-06-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 583
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
NCC320 is on a distinguished road
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

I just ordered a 35 lb. Mantus for my Catalina 320. And, I don't even anchor out very often. Here in eastern NC, we get hurricanes on a routine basis, and even then, I choose to stay at the pier (26 lines to 11 pilings though) as opposed to hauling out or anchoring out. So why did I do it? Well, it was the bolts in large part.

My boat carries a 33 lb. Bruce as primary and Danforth (WM) as secondary. These are the anchors most often seen and used in this area (along with some CRQ plows and Deltas). Gradually we are seeing, the new generation anchors appear in the area, but mostly its those old ones. But if you look long and hard at the tests that have been run (almost all run by the anchor companies or magazines or equipment vendors) and the long term assessments of all the various anchors, you find that every anchor seems to do well in some bottoms but not in all. The new generation anchors, including Mantus, appear to fill a void where the tried and true Bruce, plows, Deltas, and Danforth types fail. And one generally doesn't really know the bottom where they will be anchoring until they actually try it. This is not a good time to find that your anchor doesn't work. But on my boat (and probably most), storing a third anchor, especially one that is not compact (like the Danforth or Fortress are) is a problem. Mantus use of bolts so that the anchor can be disassembled solves this problem. The anchor can be readily disassembled into three major, more or less, flat components which can be readily stored. Fortress has an extremely good reputation and can be disassembled also, plus it is light weight. But Fortress is, in my opinion, really a great refinement of the basic Danforth fluke design, and I already have a fluke type on board. The void that I have is in the area of new designs (Rocna, Manson, Mantus, Spade) where they appear in testing to work in bottoms where the older designs don't. With the Mantus, I will carry three different designs, and hopefully one will work wherever I choose to go. That's my strategy, and each of us will have a different strategy and many, if not most, will different from mine.

As to the strength of bolts, look around. They are used everywhere in more brutal and trying conditions. As to concern that nuts may back off in actual use, lock washers (split washers) solve this problem. (My boat trailer for example is bolted together and lock washers hold the assembly together despite all the bumps, rail crossings, and pot holes in the road). Still concerned about bolts working loose, then use the appropriate grade of Loctite on the bolts and they won't come apart. Strength is a matter of size, number, and type of bolts that are used, and if properly designed, strength of bolts becomes a non-issue.

There is another reason that I feel that I need one of the new generation anchors (Fortress, Rocna, Manson, Spade, Mantus). It's holding power that seems to be offered by these anchors in severe conditions like hurricanes. Hurricanes are different from straight line storms. You are going to get extremely high gusting winds that will veer around through at least 180 degrees. In my case, while I stay at the pier, a change in marina policy or other external influence could mean that I need to anchor out. Given the depth of creeks suitable for hurricane holes, I am somewhat limited to just a few creeks and these will be crowded with other boats. So the possibility of having to anchor out on short notice is real. To that end, I have a plan and the equipment that I hope will work. Many people do not check into the actual forces they will likely encounter and just double up on anchors.
The storms typically are 70-80 mph when they get to us, but 110 mph has occurred. Wind forces at the 70 mph range for my boat will likely be on the order of 3300+ lbs. In the tests, the older generation anchors didn't routinely hold forces this high, but the new generation anchors seemed to exceed this holding power. (Deep down, I think that the tried and true anchors are better than shown in the various tests by all the organizetions. It just that they were not tested where they excel). My hurricane anchoring plan is different from what is most often recommended and involves the Bruce and Danforth from the boat, and a 43 lb. Danforth (WM) in combination to reach the necessary holding force. I will use the new generation anchor (Mantus in my case) in the plan to gain additional holding capability.

Each of us has different ideas and experience, so we will all do something different in the area of anchor selection and use. And each should do what they feel best. Do I have some concerns, yes. Do I think is will be ok, I hope so. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bought it.

Last edited by NCC320; 08-06-2012 at 09:22 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #102  
Old 08-06-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 583
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
NCC320 is on a distinguished road
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors View Post
grease the anchor
Mantus,

In your website, you indicate that a packet of grease is shipped as part of the package for the bolts that hold the parts together.

Why do you recommend grease on the bolts. Bolts work because of the friction forces between the nut and bolt threads. Putting on grease reduces the friction. Likewise with the lock washer, which keeps the nuts from working off. I could see that this might be done to reduce rusting of the bolts (they will rust before the rest of the anchor, because in tightening, the galvanized surface of the bolt threads is damaged. But galvanized bolts are cheap. Just replace them when they rust (don't wait until they crumble or sieze up because of the rust, however). Did I misread the web page or what am I missing?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #103  
Old 08-06-2012
SloopJonB's Avatar
Senior Moment Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 10,823
Thanks: 58
Thanked 52 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 4
SloopJonB will become famous soon enough
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Mantus Initial Observations:

As we were leaving our anchoring spot Sunday morning my buddy Jay had pre-shortened scope to about 1.1:1 and we then had breakfast. This is a trick we learned with the Manson Supreme an Rocna and it helps to gently un-set the anchor, as I bury them pretty well each time we "power-set" it. When we went to leave the anchor was still well set so I throttled forward and Jay felt it un-set. He then began to bring up the chain and the damn thing re-set, at about 1.1:1 almost yanking him off the bow.......

So far so good but I do still want to gain more experience with it before declaring it our new primary anchor......
How much of the bottom did it bring up? I've found the Mansocnas bring up a LOT of gunk, especially mud.
__________________
I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #104  
Old 08-06-2012
SloopJonB's Avatar
Senior Moment Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 10,823
Thanks: 58
Thanked 52 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 4
SloopJonB will become famous soon enough
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
As to the strength of bolts, look around. They are used everywhere in more brutal and trying conditions. As to concern that nuts may back off in actual use, lock washers (split washers) solve this problem. (My boat trailer for example is bolted together and lock washers hold the assembly together despite all the bumps, rail crossings, and pot holes in the road). Still concerned about bolts working loose, then use the appropriate grade of Loctite on the bolts and they won't come apart. Strength is a matter of size, number, and type of bolts that are used, and if properly designed, strength of bolts becomes a non-issue.
Absolutely right. I think the bolt/one piece "question" is purely psychological - one piece just "feels" stronger or more reliable.

As someone correctly pointed out - the shackle pin holding the rode to the shank is a fraction of the size of ONE of the bolts.

If one is nervous about nuts loosening, you could switch to same strength castellated nuts with pins or drill a small hole through nut and bolt shank and safety wire them like race car suspension parts.

Remember, your keel is probably held on with nuts & bolts.
__________________
I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #105  
Old 08-06-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 673
Thanks: 8
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
LinekinBayCD is on a distinguished road
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Mantus,

In your website, you indicate that a packet of grease is shipped as part of the package for the bolts that hold the parts together.

Why do you recommend grease on the bolts. Bolts work because of the friction forces between the nut and bolt threads. Putting on grease reduces the friction. Likewise with the lock washer, which keeps the nuts from working off. I could see that this might be done to reduce rusting of the bolts (they will rust before the rest of the anchor, because in tightening, the galvanized surface of the bolt threads is damaged. But galvanized bolts are cheap. Just replace them when they rust (don't wait until they crumble or sieze up because of the rust, however). Did I misread the web page or what am I missing?
Not speaking for Mantus but my guess is that it makes it easier (or even possible) to disassemble the anchor. I would think that after even one season those bolts might be tough to get off. I'm wondering if it would be good idea to unbolt it on occasion or you might not be able to after a period of time.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #106  
Old 08-06-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 673
Thanks: 8
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
LinekinBayCD is on a distinguished road
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Mantus Initial Observations:

OK so only 8 anchorings on the Mantus over the weekend. The big problem for us is that our Rocna and Manson Supreme have perfect track records over hundreds & hundreds of sets.

The only time our Rocna failed to set was in waist high eel grass when it pulled up a root ball the size of Milwaukee...

So how do I put the Mantus through the ringer and see what she's made of...?? I know, we will only set it between 2:1 and 2.5:1 scope. So over 8 sets that is what we did.

On the first set, my buddy Jay, whom we've sailed with for 20+ years, was setting the hook. I asked him to play it out to 2:1 and snub it. He did, and while the boat was moving backwards at a pretty good clip. The anchor set not just quickly but instantaneously. We knew it was set because the bow of our 36' boat dipped a few inches as the boat was stopped dead in its tracks. I then, without waiting for it to "settle" into the bottom as you need to do with many old school anchors, backed down at full reverse throttle and held it there for a good while. On our boat this is about 600 - 800 pounds of reverse thrust. The anchor would not budge even in some very soft gooey mud. This is a 44HP four cylinder diesel spinning a three blade prop with the anchor at roughly 2:1 scope and wide open reverse throttle...

Over the weekend we repeated the 2:1 +/- sets and each time remained anchored at 2:1 +/-. The anchor set, as my buddy Jay puts it, "Dude this thing is like a magnet for the bottom."....

Having come from a Rocna this type of setting abuse, I felt, was going to be the only way to note any performance differences.

There was a noticeable difference in the speed the anchors sets at compared to the Rocna and Manson Supreme. This is not to say the Manson and Rocna do not set fast, they do, and always set within inches, but the Mantus feels as though it sets as soon as it touches down and immediately.


At this point it is too early to say whether this is luck or performance but if I had to shoot from the hip I would say it is performance. It will remain on my bow for our cruise Downeast and I will give it some more abuse.

So I would have to say that as of now my gut feeling is that this is an "evolutionary" improvement in setting over the Manson Supreme and the Rocna but not a "revolutionary" improvement. Evolutionary is good especially when going up against the tremendous performance of a Rocna or Manson Supreme

The performance was good enough this weekend that for now it is replacing my non-Chinese Rocna as our primary bow anchor..

As we were leaving our anchoring spot Sunday morning my buddy Jay had pre-shortened scope to about 1.1:1 and we then had breakfast. This is a trick we learned with the Manson Supreme an Rocna and it helps to gently un-set the anchor, as I bury them pretty well each time we "power-set" it. When we went to leave the anchor was still well set so I throttled forward and Jay felt it un-set. He then began to bring up the chain and the damn thing re-set, at about 1.1:1 almost yanking him off the bow.......

So far so good but I do still want to gain more experience with it before declaring it our new primary anchor......
Is the Mantus more or less concave than the Rocna's and Manson's? From the picture it looks like may have a little less of a cupped shape than the Rocna. I believe that the cupped shape (vs the plow shape) give a lot of the new generation anchors their edge in ultimate holding power. Maybe if West Marine starts to sell the Mantus I'll trade in my Chinese Rocna.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #107  
Old 08-06-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Gloucester, MA
Posts: 586
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
klem is on a distinguished road
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Mantus,

In your website, you indicate that a packet of grease is shipped as part of the package for the bolts that hold the parts together.

Why do you recommend grease on the bolts. Bolts work because of the friction forces between the nut and bolt threads. Putting on grease reduces the friction. Likewise with the lock washer, which keeps the nuts from working off. I could see that this might be done to reduce rusting of the bolts (they will rust before the rest of the anchor, because in tightening, the galvanized surface of the bolt threads is damaged. But galvanized bolts are cheap. Just replace them when they rust (don't wait until they crumble or sieze up because of the rust, however). Did I misread the web page or what am I missing?
You are correct that friction is what prevents a nut from backing off but the friction generated is essentially proportional to the torque put on the bolt and is effectively independent of the coefficient of friction. It typically takes around 70% of the tightening torque to break a bolt loose and this is the same regardless of the coefficient. Loctite is a bit different because it creates a mechanical bond after the tightening torque has been applied. If the parts are together for a long time and they corrode (less likely when greased), that will increase the loosening torque but I don't consider this to be a good thing. If everything galls when it goes together, that can also make it harder to take apart but this is really bad and shows a poorly designed or assembled joint.

What does change with the friction coefficient is the tension induced in the bolts. Contrary to what many people think, in most cases you get a stronger joint with a bolt torqued to ~70-80% of yield strength than with one torqued to a lower value. Fatigue is a large concern for bolts (anchors are likely to be low cycle fatigue not high cycle) and it can be effectively eliminated with proper design in many instances. When something that is stiffer than the bolt is being bolted, the bolt acts like a spring and stretches a bit when torqued. When a load smaller than the bolt tension is applied, the force between the things that the bolt is clamping goes down but the force on the bolt doesn't go up meaning that there is not fatigue loading. For anyone who is curious about this, wikipiedia actually has a decent article if you search for bolt fatigue. Along with eliminating fatigue in most circumstances, you greatly increase the friction between the things being clamped which is almost always beneficial.

People tend to ignore the importance of bolt torque and it really can be a big deal in certain applications. A properly torqued bolt will not back out in almost all applications (exceptions being where the torque spec is low due to a weak or flexible component). Most people tend to overtorque small bolts and undertorque big bolts.

Bottom line is that in this type of joint, greased threads and properly torqued nuts will be the best setup. For people looking for a truly permanent assembly, loctite can be substituted for grease but the torque is still very important.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #108  
Old 08-06-2012
chrisncate's Avatar
Don't sail anymore
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 4,795
Thanks: 18
Thanked 31 Times in 31 Posts
Rep Power: 5
chrisncate is on a distinguished road
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Sounds like this anchor is a winner. Nice!

Find a way to mount a robutst and protected undwerwater camera that is wireless within the shank somewhere, and write an app so said camera transmits to any smartphone and truly revolutionize the industry with the best anchor and only one you can visually verify as set from the cockpit... (don't forget to add an LED so it works at night )

Congrats on what looks like a great product.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #109  
Old 08-06-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 583
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
NCC320 is on a distinguished road
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by klem View Post
Contrary to what many people think, in most cases you get a stronger joint with a bolt torqued to ~70-80% of yield strength than with one torqued to a lower value.

People tend to ignore the importance of bolt torque and it really can be a big deal in certain applications. A properly torqued bolt will not back out in almost all applications (exceptions being where the torque spec is low due to a weak or flexible component). Most people tend to overtorque small bolts and undertorque big bolts.
.
Basically, I agree with what you have said, assuming properly torqued bolts....i.e. 70-80% of yield strength. However, in the real world with this anchor application, I suspect most people will probably just tighten the bolts with a wrench, not to a particular torque setting and the preloading will not exist at the above levels. Holes are a little oversized and lubricant under the bolt head, washer, locking nut, and on the treads could, in the low torque situation, allow under extreme conditions some working of the joined components and gradually loosen the bolt. In my case, I plan to keep the anchor disassembled and stored below. I would prefer not to worry about getting grease on everything during assembly, storage, and handling, so I will probably not use the grease. Greasing the bolt does reduce friction and if torque values have been specified assuming a non-lubricated joint, torquing to 70-80% could conceivably overstress the bolt. I'll see what manufacturer specifies when I get the anchor, but I will leave off the grease.

Last edited by NCC320; 08-06-2012 at 09:09 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #110  
Old 08-06-2012
MedSailor's Avatar
Closet Powerboater
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes PNW
Posts: 2,708
Thanks: 110
Thanked 57 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 7
MedSailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
How much of the bottom did it bring up? I've found the Mansocnas bring up a LOT of gunk, especially mud.

This is something that I hope the Mantus has improved upon over the Mansocnas of the world. I know that most people LIKE the big mud ball that the Mansocnas bring up because it lets them see that it was dug in, but personally I think it is a major design flaw. That mud might add 40# to what you're trying to bring up and currently I have a manual windlass. What if you are trying to bring it up by hand?

Another more theoretical problem of the mudball is that if your anchor does pull out (say in a shifting wind) and needs to reset, the mudball might keep it from being able to dig in again.

I know my anchor is set because I back down on it, and occasionally I SCUBA dive on it. I don't need to bring the bottom up for verification!

I'll let you know if mine brings up anything when I am able to test it.


As for the grease, don't worry about getting it all over everything. I'm like a cat when it comes to getting stuff like that on my paws. I hate it! The grease was pretty easy to work with and didn't stink. Put it on the threads and wipe off the rest. It cleaned up pretty well.

MedSailor
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I have a sauna on my boat, therefore I win.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Seacock" vs. "ballcock" or "ball valve?" SEMIJim Gear & Maintenance 18 09-02-2013 05:31 PM
"Buyer's Market" - any data to back it up? hazmat17 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 86 09-24-2012 09:25 AM
"Market Price" deniseO30 Chesapeake Bay 16 07-08-2011 06:43 PM
How to anchor with "stern-tie" single handed FishFinder Seamanship & Navigation 12 09-04-2009 12:37 PM
C270 Main Sail "stack Pack", Quick Cover", "lazy Bag" Install randy22556 Catalina 1 02-28-2007 11:53 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:58 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.