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  #111  
Old 08-06-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

NCC320, it is certainly true that most people are unlikely to use a torque wrench. Given the sloppy holes, it would be significantly better to use grease on the bolts than to install them dry because there would be much less chance of movement for the same torque setting due to the higher clamping force and resulting higher friction force between the two parts being bolted.

Out of curiosity, does Mantus specify a torque for the bolts? It would certainly be easy to look up based on the bolt grade and size but if they provide a torque, it might mean that they feel it is really important or it may give them some legal protection against people who only make them finger tight and then complain when they come loose.

Last edited by klem; 08-06-2012 at 10:07 PM.
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  #112  
Old 08-07-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

No Mantus Anchors does not specify an installation torque. From Assembly Instructions, "tighten the nuts with a wrench until the lock-washers are compressed".
As long as you use an appropriately sized wrench & grease & give it a good yank all will be good.
It really wouldn't be prudent to specify a torque since there is way too much variability outside the control of the designer. Yes, calculating an optimum preload is straight forward. But in order to get a torque, you have to deal with a nasty bugger called nut factor which can vary greatly with operator, tool, surface prep, lube etc. Look at any Torque Table (there are many on web), they all have disclaimers of "general use only", "advisory use only", "user assumes all risk" etc etc.

And as stated by others, definitely use the grease/lanolin. It not only provides excellent corrosion protection but also reduces the nut factor, applying more preload into bolts & clamping force into joint.
Additionally, as with any piece of safety equipment, always inspect before use.
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  #113  
Old 08-09-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Sorry for the delay on addressing the issue of torque and grease. Grease is in place to protect the bots against corrosion AND as anti-seize protection, so after a 2 years of use the bolts still can be taken off. We recommend Tef-gel or Lanolin for this application.
There are some anchors that we sent out that had the wrong grease and we will send a replacement grease packet to those customers, what should have come is a packet of lanolin. We recommend tightening the bolts until the lock washer is flat and compressed and do not have any specific torque recommendations. Incidentally a disclaimer, Red Sky is an engineer with Mantus Anchors. Nuts getting loose is not an issue if they were tightened using compression split washers. Once properly assembled Mantus Anchor is no different than any other "ONE PIECE" anchor, except that it gives you the most reliable set.
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Last edited by Mantus Anchors; 08-09-2012 at 03:20 PM. Reason: typo
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  #114  
Old 08-16-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Dear Sailnet Members,

Our initial special "Buy the next size up for the price of this one"
Expired.
But don't worry, our goal is to get as many anchors out there so people can use them and find out for themselves what Mantus offers over competition and FINALLY spread the word. We are going to offer a new promotion 25% off any anchor you buy for the next month only for SAILNET members.
The code for the coupon is: SAILNET.
Offer ends Sept 16th
MANTUS ANCHORS
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  #115  
Old 09-23-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Disclosures: I do not know Greg personally and have no affiliation or financial interest in his company or the success thereof. Greg of Mantus anchors did offer me the anchor which I bought at a "pro-deal" deep discount on the condition that I post my results, good or bad, here on sailnet.

I had hoped to have the Mantus out for a true sea trial several times by now, but there is something about the birth of your first child that will slow down your boating season. Slow, I say, but not stop! We just got back from our first overnight boat trip (2 nights) with the 5 week old. For details about the kid part I'll be posting in the Cruising With Kids section of Sailnet here shortly.

Back to the anchor. Having read Maine_Sail's account of the Mantus grabbing on short scope, I thought I would try and replicate this with my experiment. The plan, with kiddo on board, was to go somewhere familiar which actually has very good holding. Since the holding is good and the wind forecast for only 10-15knots I figured we wouldn't be stressing the anchor so I might as well try the short scope thing.

Turns out I was wrong about not stressing the anchor.....

Here is our destination. Sucia island, which is my favorite boating destination. The "X" marks where we dropped the hook and (happily) where we found ourselves 2 days later. The circle is to help you find the "M" for "Mud" bottom type. The mud itself (for you connoisseurs of) is a pretty sticky and dark but not smelly. It is harder than "soft mud" and will stick to some anchors but it is not clay like and gravity will make it fall off the anchor usually. If you stick your finger in it leaves an impression and it is mixed with a few small shells.


It was a windless trip up but I was able to take some Mantus-eye-view photos from the bowsprit. This picture is a reflection of my boat as it is underway. (note the brown stuff around the anchor bolts is the manufacturer's supplied grease - not rust. Mantus has apparently already changed the color of the grease so that it doesn't look like rust! )


On the way to Sucia:


Now the details. We chose a spot where the depth sounder read 35ft. Mine is 2ft below the waterline and my roller is 8 feet above the waterline. That makes our depth (for the purposes of calculating scope) 45ft. I had attempted to hit a round number with regard to scope but ended up with 100ft out give or take a foot. We have 3/8 BBB chain of 280ft length and (later) I attached our 15ft (non-stretchy) bridle which is at the waterline.

So lets see.... 100ft of scope out devided by 45 = 2.22222:1 ratio, or in round numbers 2.2 : 1 scope.

How's my math so far? Good? Okay. We backed up much quicker than normal and low and behold it set as soon as the slack was taken up. I'd say it is likely it set right where we dropped it. We proceeded to back up to an engine RPM of 3200 which is about 35HP at the prop plus there was 10kts of wind helping add some force. This stretched the chain out to an angle that was pretty far.

I also refrained from raising the mizzen for a while and allowed the bow to get blown off in the wind. This presents the boat at about a 60deg angle broadside to the wind before snatching back and "tacking" to the other side. The Mantus held fine at this scope. We stood broadside in the 10-12kts tacking back and forth for about 20minutes on the short scope. The Mantus held fine.

After "testing" the anchor I put out 160ft of chain and attached my bridle (which is right at the waterline) for the night. I also raised out 150sqft mizzen.

My scope overnight would be as follows: 160 (ft of chain) devided by 37 (remember my transducer is mounted 2ft below the waterline and was reading 35) for a total scope of 4.3:1. Now here's the part where I'm a bit embarrased. I made a mental math error when letting out the chain. I was actually shooting for my next chain mark which is 200ft and would have given me the 5:1 that I usually shoot for. Another reason that lots of scope is good I guess because it allows for math errors.

I had expected that this would be the only real test but I was to be proven wrong. We ended up having the windiest night we have ever experienced at Sucia! It is a very protected harbor but in the harbor my wind meter was reading sustained winds of 15-18 with gusts up into the high 20s. The wind was late at night and I wasn't awake or watching the wind gauge for many of the gusts but we both estimate they were right around 30knots and they varied in direction by about 90deg or so sometimes causing us to heel sharply.

Sure enough the Mantus held us firmly in place with 15kts gusting 30kts from varying wind angles with just over 4:1 scope on a good holding bottom. The second day and night had less than 10kts of wind and wasn't an issue.

Retrieval was not difficult. It was obvious when the chain was vertical and I had to use the low gear in the windlass to break it free, but it did break free. I was pleased to see that it didn't bring up half the bottom as many Rocnas have been shown to do. Some people like that their Rocna brings up half the bottom because if makes them feel confident that the anchor dug in well. For me, it's poor design. Staying put is proof that the anchor was dug in and the extra mud is extra weight and strain on gear to haul up. This is particularly bad if bringing it up by hand.

The mantus came up with mud forward of the attachment of the shank but all the mud "aft" of it was gone. I expect from the shape that this will usually be the case, meaning a moderate amount of mud will be attached. My fortress and Bruce also bring up some mud (but not loads of it) from this anchorage.






The mud on the "ears" and hoop attachment bolts mean it was likely buried all the way in the mud. Of course holding my 30,000lb boat on 30kts would also imply this...



So far I'm impressed with the short scope setting ability. Holding power is either adequate or you're on the rocks. So far the holding power was adequate, especially considering the gusts to 30kts and the fact that my scope was shorter than expected.

I haven't yet tested one of its claimed features which is that it will set where others won't. When I get a chance to try it in a couple difficult anchorages I'll post those results here as well.

Questions?

MedSailor
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  #116  
Old 09-23-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Med Sailor,

Very nice write up, and I enjoyed reading it. Informative and entertaining at the same time. When you showed a youngish Albert Einstein in the math section, were you aware that he flunked math at school? So don't worry about the scope error, Albert turned out OK in math. I like your conclusion that lots of scope makes up for errors in judgment.

I also enjoyed your detailed discussion of bottom mud, an underrated topic in my experience.

Last edited by skygazer; 09-26-2012 at 09:05 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #117  
Old 09-24-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Good post. When you figure your scope your re using a depth from the depth finder, which may be as much as 8 feet from the bow roller. ( depending on your boats freeboard). It is a common mistake a lot of people make when anchoring. good that you reinforced that.

I am glad to see that the holding power equals what I would see with a Rocna or Manson Supreme which it obvious mimics and is basically a knockoff/ copy of their new generation designs. Expectations would be that it would have similar results in independent tests using controlled conditions like Practical Sailor does.

I have a similar designed Rocna and noticed its difference in setting from the other type anchors I have as we'll as its ability to handle a variety of bottom compositions. I don't find that my Rocna brings up half the bottom as you mentioned, ( it really depends on the bottoms composition) and if you had placed a Ronca in the same type of mud you anchored in, I would make the assumption that it would look similarly as the Mantus did when you brought it up. I do not consider that part of your evalution scientific rather just an opinion. The anchors are so similarly shaped to see dramatic differences in holding abilities would really surprise me. Again is definitive test of all three anchors in similar substrate would be the real test and it would make sense they would be close together.

I based my decision of the Rocna not on its setting ability, but on its ability to reset. Many anchors can be set securely with proper technique and will survive winds like you mentioned. We have had our Ronca in winds far exceeding that and in gusting T storms on the Chessie to 55 knotts and in my coastal travels on the LISound and New England. Like you found when I first used a new generation anchor I was surprised at the ease and setting ability they display. In some of he conditiones I anchor in there are substantial reversing currents. The anchor is to be expected to turn and reset. It is this ability that the Manson, Rocna, and now the Mantus with their new designs excell in it appears. It is this which has made the new gen anchor the one I carry on my bow as a primary. I would like a secondary one similar.

Thank you for your thorough post and report as well as you disclaimer. That is important in light of this manufacturers previous failures to disclose in previous postings by posters which now have now been addressed since discovered by a few Sailnet members.

I would like to purchase this as a secondary anchor not because I beleive it will have magical greater holding properties than any of the other new gen anchors, but because of its ability to be carried disassembled, which would give me a spare or second anchor as a storm anchor I could carry easily. I only need one of these new gen anchors on my bow which I have , but to have another as a backup plan would in fact give me greater security and if I was a long range cruiser which may be in my future seven greater sense of backup and security.

I would really like to see an independent test of the bolts and their failure point. I certainly would be willing to do a user test as you have if Mantus would be willing to give me a "pro deal deep discount". Wonder if they re listing ( smile).

Thanks again for this report and I assume future ones for this anchor.

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 09-24-2012 at 01:05 AM.
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  #118  
Old 09-24-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

I am glad to see that the holding power equals what I would see with a Rocna or Manson Supreme which it obvious mimics and is basically a knockoff/ copy of their new generation designs.

I based my decision ..... not on its setting ability, but on its ability to reset. Many anchors can be set securely with proper technique and will survive winds like you mentioned... ..... The anchor is to be expected to turn and reset. It is this ability that the Manson, Rocna, and now the Mantus with their new designs excell in it appears. It is this which has made the new gen anchor the one I carry on my bow as a primary. I would like a secondary one similar.

.... this manufacturers previous failures to disclose in previous postings by posters which now have now been addressed since discovered by a few Sailnet members.

I would like to purchase this as a secondary anchor not because I beleive it will have magical greater holding properties than any of the other new gen anchors, but because of its ability to be carried disassembled, which would give me a spare or second anchor as a storm anchor I could carry easily.

I would really like to see an independent test of the bolts and their failure point.

Dave
Chef2Sail,

Just an opinion......You are not treating Mantus very well. Do you have an agenda adverse to Mantus? You have implied, not proven, that they have done or are doing underhanded things in promoting their anchor and you not only put them down, but you imply that somehow their anchor is inferior to your Rocna and to Manson. Prove it. Back it up with your own test data.

You say you want to buy one as a back-up/secondary anchor as I did. If so, go ahead and buy it and stop bashing it.

You fuss about not having an independent test, but if you were to test the bolts and their failure point, just how would you do it? Scientifically. Let's see your test.

Why am I posting this....well I just hate to see the new guy get unfairly beat up. It's the new guys that bring us new innovations, or maybe just refinements over the existing technology, but either way it's good. We need to support them, not try beat them back, unless somehow they are a threat to us in some way. Give the guy a break.

One final thought, discount....Mantus has offered all Sailnetters a discount. As for offering you a special deal beyond that, he could if he wanted and would be justified if you did as MedSailor has/is doing....running some tests that take time and effort, and maybe some expense. But, given how you treated Mantus, if I were him, I would not want you testing my product for the record after all your posts on the subject.

Misconduct: Let's see...thusfar, your charges are that his engineer did not identify herself as being associated with Mantus...that came to light when Mantus told you about it. Most of her posts were direct answers to questions that other posters asked. Secondly, Mantus said that he was offering a discount to Sailnetters only, but at some point, he offered a similar one to Cruisers group. Pretty damning stuff.....did you not ever misspeak, make a mistake, or change your mind or position? And posting a P.O. Box number as address. Nothing about product deficiencies or problems fulfiling the orders, because to date, none have arisen that I am aware of. Probably this product, like most, will not be perfect, and eventually, some may fail...but let's beat up people after the failures, if they ever occur, not before.

Last edited by NCC320; 09-24-2012 at 10:07 AM.
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  #119  
Old 09-24-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

I would really like to see an independent test of the bolts and their failure point. I certainly would be willing to do a user test as you have if Mantus would be willing to give me a "pro deal deep discount". Wonder if they re listing ( smile).

Thanks again for this report and I assume future ones for this anchor.

Dave

Dave,

Consider this.

1- The 35 & 45 Mantus have four bolts of 1/2" diameter. This is larger than any bow cleat bolts I have seen on a boat sized for a 45 pound anchor let alone a 35 pound anchor. Why is it okay to have four weaker SS bolts of 1/4" or 5/16" or 3/8" for the deck cleat but when we have FOUR 1/2" bolts, with a strength of about 25,000 pounds each, on the anchor end we want to see test data? Where is the test data for the bow cleats? Apparently if the bolts on the Mantus are suspect then the "undersized" bolts on the hundreds of thousands of boats out there, with bolts far smaller and weaker than the four holding the fluke of the Mantus to the shank, should be suspect too?

Interestingly enough I just measured the single "pivot pin" on my 35 pound CQR. The pin, a wear item, is just slightly under 3/4" yet the meat on the shank, that pivots around on the 3/4" pin, is only 3/8" thick. So four 1/2" bolts to hold your vessel or one single 3/4" pin? I don't know of a single CQR having the pivot pin fail despite it technically being a wear item and the four 1/2" bolts on the Mantus are not "wear" items. More meat holding the Mantus than there is holding the fluke to shank on a CQR...

2- On the deck cleat end we have the potential for wet core and the potential for crevice corrosion of the bolts? How often do you know of boat owners replacing bow cleat bolts? How often do they attend to the wet core around those deck cleats? In my experience not often enough.. How often have you seen four 1/2" bolts holding on the deck cleats, which are at the OTHER END of the anchor rode.

3-
Most rigging on boats sized for a 35 or 45 pound anchor are not 1/2" in diameter, and are made of weaker SS, and these rig sees tremendous loads day in day out. An anchor for a 35-37 footer might see brief peaks to 3000-5000 pounds, in a Hurricane, but a single 1/2" bolt could support the entire weight of a Tartan 37 and more yet the Mantus has FOUR.....

4- Let us not forget the chain and shackles connected to a Mantus anchor via the rode system. Most boaters using anchors of this size are using 1/4" or 5/16" chain because that is what their windlass gypsy takes. Some use 3/8". Just one single half inch bolt exceeds the breaking strength of the rode by over 10,000 pounds but as we know there are FOUR 1/2" bolts... For example a Crosby "red pin" anchor shackle in 3/8" has a WLL of 1 ton and a break strength of 12,000 pounds. One half inch bolt, according to Mantus, is roughly 25,000 pounds.


So far our Mantus has performed as expected and sets slightly faster than our Rocna or Manson. Course we are talking inches in difference but still when it hits the bottom it digs in instantaneously. Holding power is probably apples to apples and I did load test the Rocna against the Mantus and could not budge either with a 29' sport fishing boat. It was tough to get them out however.....

As for mud all three bring up fairly equal amounts of bottom....
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 09-24-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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  #120  
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Chef2Sail,

Just an opinion......You are not treating Mantus very well. Do you have an agenda adverse to Mantus? You have implied, not proven, that they have done or are doing underhanded things in promoting their anchor and you not only put them down, but you imply that somehow their anchor is inferior to your Rocna and to Manson. Prove it. Back it up with your own test data.

You say you want to buy one as a back-up/secondary anchor as I did. If so, go ahead and buy it and stop bashing it.

You fuss about not having an independent test, but if you were to test the bolts and their failure point, just how would you do it? Scientifically. Let's see your test.

Why am I posting this....well I just hate to see the new guy get unfairly beat up. It's the new guys that bring us new inovations, or maybe just refinements over the existing technology, but either way it's good. We need to support them, not try beat them back, unless somehow they are a threat to us in some way. Give the guy a break.
Good post.

I was one who was critical of Mantus in the way they first attempted to promote their anchor tests as 'proof' of their effectiveness. Others made similar comments.

Obviously it was an issue to them, so they undertook what you see to have various credible sailors to utilize the anchor in various test situations. Are those scientific? Nope, but they certainly are indicative, and contrary to the way Rocna specifically was marketed for many years. Good on Mantus. I also was skeptical of the break-down design... I'm changing my mind on that.

As far as the bolts are concerned, is has been discussed elsewhere on this forum by knowledgeable individuals that the bolts clearly are well in excess of what is required. Bolts are rated, the rating is on their heads.
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