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post #201 of 291 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Wow, kind of rude...
Yeah, I didn't quite like it myself. In fact, it got me really, well, lets just say I didn't respond on purpose. Glad to see I'm not the only one who felt it was wrong to say. Thanks MainSail. BTW: I am sure you remember me...I was one of the newbie sailors 9 years ago asking stupid questions on another forum. I learned a lot back then about sailing but also about people and the main reason I don't come to these sites anymore...stuff like this happens.
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post #202 of 291 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Chef:

If you do actually own both the Rocna and Mantus and can't understand why the Mantus sets better than the Rocna, do yourself a favor, and us too, and take a picture of both anchors setting on a table on their side (how they actually set). If you can't see why one sets better than the other from that picture, post the picture here and I bet many who understand Physics will point out the differences and what they mean.

To claim the Mantus is just a copy of the Rocna is pure non-sense to be kindly about it. Not sure why I am being kind though considering you have already started calling me names.
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post #203 of 291 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization.
See
or shill - definition of shill by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. .

Hard to say that someone who credibly defines their relationship with the vender in question is a shill.

In my personal experience the difference between the spoon-shaped anchors from Rocna, Manson Supreme, Spade, Mantus, and the late, lamented Raya are trivial. I don't have the side-by-side comparison that Maine Sail does but I sure have a lot of time on the hook with different anchors on different boats. I'm not a big fan of aluminum Spades but the steel ones and all the others I listed are so far head and shoulders above older designs that differentiating is splitting hairs. What fits on your bow roller and what kind of price can you get make the most difference. I have some ethical issues with Manson and of course Raya is out of business. I wouldn't hesitate to buy an anchor from Rocna, Spade (steel), or Mantus if I didn't have plenty of good (mostly) anchors already.

For the record I have two Rocna 25 anchors (55#, one a prototype collapsible version that didn't make it to market), a mid-sized Breeze (an EU Bruce knock-off I'm not crazy about), a Fortress, and assorted dinghy and float anchors. I got a good deal on the collapsible Rocna to participate in testing; I was offered a similar deal from Mantus (the same one ultimately offered to all of SailNet) that I did not accept since I have no room for more anchors.

Opinion: sell your CQRs now while there is still a market for them. They are starting to show up as mailbox stands around Annapolis. *grin*

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post #204 of 291 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

i will kindly accept all reject original bruce anchors over 25 kg......


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post #205 of 291 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by FranklinGray View Post
Chef:

If you do actually own both the Rocna and Mantus and can't understand why the Mantus sets better than the Rocna, do yourself a favor, and us too, and take a picture of both anchors setting on a table on their side (how they actually set). If you can't see why one sets better than the other from that picture, post the picture here and I bet many who understand Physics will point out the differences and what they mean.

To claim the Mantus is just a copy of the Rocna is pure non-sense to be kindly about it. Not sure why I am being kind though considering you have already started calling me names.

Questioning whether I own both is a more politically correct way of stating what my friend. You are so much the better person.

I have stated long before in this thread when I purchased my Mantus. I also stated the reason was that I was happy to see that there was a way of achieving an emergency/ second anchor with the abilities of the Rocna/ Manson new generation type anchors. Having utilized a number of times after I received it I am confident that it will. See I dont have to perform some silly test of putting them side by side on a table and letting some ametuer explain the physics of the anchor. Even us amatuers can descern from 20 ft away that the build is basically the same.

It is a copycat anchor with a few differences ( obvious again or it couldnt be patented), and the fact that it came along after Rocna/ Manson doesnt mean it isnt as effective, nor does it mean it is more so. In fact most of us ( by the way do you have a Rocna/ Manson to compare it with...maybe youd like to put them on a table and take a picture) who have used both shown NEGLIABLE differences in the setting holding abilities. That makes sense as there is very negliable differences in the the designs.

I am sure when someday a reputable non biased organization like PS includes it in one of their tests. I think this is what Paulo was driving at. The results will reflect that. We wont have to be dependent on relying on amateur U Tube tests which show only the successfull stories and obviously have no baseline of equality a real test would. Till then we will have to listen to testimonials from purchasers and company spokesmen, even those who before have posed as just interested members (Redsky).

Listening to a user of a Mantus is tantamount to listening to the user of as ROCNA. Most Rocna owners have effused confidence and only positives about their anchors. The real negative was the president of the companies boasts/ attutide and their misrepresenting later produced Chinese Rocnas of different metalurgy which has been corrected.

To me the new generation anchors (Manson, Rocna, and now mantus) designs are similar and represent a step forward in anchor designs of an anchor which does well in most varied applications. To find one which can be carried as a spare broken apart for space considerations is what drove me to buy the Mantus. I was never worried about the bolts or quality of it as it appears to be well made.


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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

[QUOTE=SVAuspicious;1249690]See
or shill - definition of shill by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. .

Hard to say that someone who credibly defines their relationship with the vender in question is a shill.

My apologies to Mr Franklin for putting him in the category of the correct terminology which the poster "redsky" was when Mantus first came aboard and posed as just another interested sailor in this forum.


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post #207 of 291 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by DRFerron View Post
Gentlemen, I know anchors are a hot topic right up there with politics and religion, but please keep civil.

One thing I don't understand and Paulo maybe you can help me. You said that you didn't understand why Mantus performed tests on their anchor since they are an "interested" party. I'm unclear as to whether you have a problem with them testing the anchor or the methods that they used. If it's the fact that they tested it, I'm really confused because why wouldn't any manufacture test their own product and continue to test to make sure that it behaves as it should? Otherwise, there'd be a heck of a lot of disbanded QA departments. If it's the location with that particular bottom that is the problem, I would hope that Mantus has done other tests in other circumstances and that this is but one of them. Since the Mantus posts says "we continue to test" than I'm going to assume they do.

I just want to be clear on your argument against it. Thanks!
Sorry, I am a bit full of this anchor war thing, with manufacturers that make unsubstantiated claims and I did only saw your request for clarification now. All this thread is a sign of it, with its title, implying that Mantus is a "next generation" anchor and not a new generation anchor with performances comparable with the other new generation anchors, but so far better that we should be talking about a "next" generation anchor.

Of course all serious manufacturers test their anchors against the best anchors on the market as part of their development process but they don't make their results public and wait for independent testers, on sail magazines, to do independent testing. Any public testing sponsored by an anchor brand should be looked as suspicious since they are an interested party.

I said that serious brands should test their anchors as part of the development process with the best anchors on the market and even regarding that I found the test posted rather odd because they did not include the two best anchors on the market, the ones that had performed better in all serious tests, the Steel Spade and the Steel Rocna. They tested an aluminium Spade that has no comparison in what regards a Steel Spade particularly in what regards setting on hard ground and that's just the only type of ground the anchors where tested, a particularly bad bottom.

Besides I have to say that all this is really naive, as if the setting of a given anchor on a hard and difficult bottom was the ultimate test for the best anchor. of course, I want an anchor that sets well, and many do that, including the Mantus, the Rocna, the Spade, the Delta, the Kobra, the Mansom among others. What really matters to me is after being stetted in a decent bottom (mud or sand) is the holding power. If I am protected from the waves can I hold on and stay there safely with a 40k wind? 50K? That's were the anchors that I mentioned have very different performances, being by far the best the Spade and the Rocna.

I want to know that I will have plenty of advise before dragging and that I will only drag well after most of the other boat on anchorage start to drag

The other point as important as the holding power (assuming a good setting) is how the anchor reacts against a complete change in wind direction and again the Rocna and the Spade comes out among the best.

Regarding these points, that are fundamental and are tested in any serious anchor test, regarding several bottoms, nothing was said on that test and notwithstanding it is presented as a definitive proof that the Mantus is a better anchor than any other

Let me just add that I anchor over a hundred times a year, sometimes waiting strong winds to go away, and I know by know what I should look at on an anchor regarding its performance and setting well is just a point and one that is done properly by many different brands of anchors

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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post #208 of 291 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Sorry, I am a bit full of this anchor war thing, with manufacturers that make unsubstantiated claims and I did only saw your request for clarification now. All this thread is a sign of it, with its title, implying that Mantus is a "next generation" anchor and not a new generation anchor with performances comparable with the other new generation anchors, but so far better that we should be talking about a "next" generation anchor.

Of course all serious manufacturers test their anchors against the best anchors on the market as part of their development process but they don't make their results public and wait for independent testers, on sail magazines, to do independent testing. Any public testing sponsored by an anchor brand should be looked as suspicious since they are an interested party.

I said that serious brands should test their anchors as part of the development process with the best anchors on the market and even regarding that I found the test posted rather odd because they did not include the two best anchors on the market, the ones that had performed better in all serious tests, the Steel Spade and the Steel Rocna. They tested an aluminium Spade that has no comparison in what regards a Steel Spade particularly in what regards setting on hard ground and that's just the only type of ground the anchors where tested, a particularly bad bottom.

Besides I have to say that all this is really naive, as if the setting of a given anchor on a hard and difficult bottom was the ultimate test for the best anchor. of course, I want an anchor that sets well, and many do that, including the Mantus, the Rocna, the Spade, the Delta, the Kobra, the Mansom among others. What really matters to me is after being stetted in a decent bottom (mud or sand) is the holding power. If I am protected from the waves can I hold on and stay there safely with a 40k wind? 50K? That's were the anchors that I mentioned have very different performances, being by far the best the Spade and the Rocna.

I want to know that I will have plenty of advise before dragging and that I will only drag well after most of the other boat on anchorage start to drag

The other point as important as the holding power (assuming a good setting) is how the anchor reacts against a complete change in wind direction and again the Rocna and the Spade comes out among the best.

Regarding these points, that are fundamental and are tested in any serious anchor test, regarding several bottoms, nothing was said on that test and notwithstanding it is presented as a definitive proof that the Mantus is a better anchor than any other

Let me just add that I anchor over a hundred times a year, sometimes waiting strong winds to go away, and I know by know what I should look at on an anchor regarding its performance and setting well is just a point and one that is done properly by many different brands of anchors

Regards

Paulo
Well put.

Another factor I would add as well as holding pwer is the ability to reset after being pulled. In many places with major changing currents and tidal directional changes this is a critical issue.


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post #209 of 291 Old 12-28-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

When I got my first "scoop-type" anchor, I was sailing a MacGregor 26X and I wanted something that would store flat in the anchor locker up in the bow. It was here that I found the Raya Tempest, and I still have that anchor as a back-up on my Bristol 29.9. (The prime anchor is a 25-lb Manson Supreme, bought right during the Rocna crisis. And it does a beautiful job - digs right into the Chesapeake mud.)

But it's just enough anchor for the Bristol, according to the charts that Joćo had on his old Ancora Latina web-site (a 30-foot boat weighing 4.5 tonnes). If I move up to a bigger boat, which I'll do if I choose to Sail Beyond The Sunset, I'm going to want a similar break-down 'scoop' back-up anchor, and nowadays, that means Mantus.

In fact, if I'm not satisfied with the next boat's existing anchor, it's likely to mean a matched pair of Mantus anchors, one assembled on the bowsprit, one disassembled in the bilge.
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post #210 of 291 Old 12-28-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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When I got my first "scoop-type" anchor, I was sailing a MacGregor 26X and I wanted something that would store flat in the anchor locker up in the bow. It was here that I found the Raya Tempest, and I still have that anchor as a back-up on my Bristol 29.9. (The prime anchor is a 25-lb Manson Supreme, bought right during the Rocna crisis. And it does a beautiful job - digs right into the Chesapeake mud.)

But it's just enough anchor for the Bristol, according to the charts that Joćo had on his old Ancora Latina web-site (a 30-foot boat weighing 4.5 tonnes). If I move up to a bigger boat, which I'll do if I choose to Sail Beyond The Sunset, I'm going to want a similar break-down 'scoop' back-up anchor, and nowadays, that means Mantus.

In fact, if I'm not satisfied with the next boat's existing anchor, it's likely to mean a matched pair of Mantus anchors, one assembled on the bowsprit, one disassembled in the bilge.
The Manson Supreme 25 is more than enough anchor for a Bristol 29.9 unless you plan on anchoring in hurricane force winds..

Be aware that "Joćo" was really Alain Poiraud pulling a fast one on every body.. He hid behind this moniker because he had sold Spade, and rumor/word on the street was that he had "taken" some proprietary designs that were supposedly sold with the Spade transaction. So he started a new company and hid himself from it as the real owner instead using Joćo who incidentally wrote and responded nearly word for word verbatim the way Alain did for so many years....

I own one of Alain's Oceanne/Sword anchors plus two Spade's.. I actually caught Alain in his little scam (long story that could create an entire thread) during some email conversations.

Funny enough that Joćo & Raya disappeared at EXACTLY the same time that Alain Poiraud passed away.... Go figure.... I do believe there was a guy named Joćo that worked for him but the email responses and many of the internet postings were that of Alain posing as Joćo.

Alain had a huge hatred for everything Rocna and Manson so take what he said with a grain of salt. Sadly he never could build a better anchor than the Spade, despite multiple attempts. He was a great anchor designer though...

The whole anchor underworld can get pretty sleazy. Just enter www dot ancoralatina dot com (the old web address of Alain's company that made the Raya) into your address bar and see what pops up?????

That's right the minute Alain Poiraud passed away, and his web domain lapsed for a split second, the Smith's of Rocna fame jumped in and picked it up redirecting all Ancora Latina traffic to the Peter Smith / Rocna page.... Peter Smith apparently had no love lost for Alain either so much so that he found it perfectly ethical to pilfer a dead mans web site......
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 12-28-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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