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  #211  
Old 12-28-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickWestlake View Post
When I got my first "scoop-type" anchor, I was sailing a MacGregor 26X and I wanted something that would store flat in the anchor locker up in the bow. It was here that I found the Raya Tempest, and I still have that anchor as a back-up on my Bristol 29.9. (The prime anchor is a 25-lb Manson Supreme, bought right during the Rocna crisis. And it does a beautiful job - digs right into the Chesapeake mud.)

But it's just enough anchor for the Bristol, according to the charts that Joćo had on his old Ancora Latina web-site (a 30-foot boat weighing 4.5 tonnes). If I move up to a bigger boat, which I'll do if I choose to Sail Beyond The Sunset, I'm going to want a similar break-down 'scoop' back-up anchor, and nowadays, that means Mantus.

In fact, if I'm not satisfied with the next boat's existing anchor, it's likely to mean a matched pair of Mantus anchors, one assembled on the bowsprit, one disassembled in the bilge.
The Manson Supreme 25 is more than enough anchor for a Bristol 29.9 unless you plan on anchoring in hurricane force winds..

Be aware that "Joćo" was really Alain Poiraud pulling a fast one on every body.. He hid behind this moniker because he had sold Spade, and rumor/word on the street was that he had "taken" some proprietary designs that were supposedly sold with the Spade transaction. So he started a new company and hid himself from it as the real owner instead using Joćo who incidentally wrote and responded nearly word for word verbatim the way Alain did for so many years....

I own one of Alain's Oceanne/Sword anchors plus two Spade's.. I actually caught Alain in his little scam (long story that could create an entire thread) during some email conversations.

Funny enough that Joćo & Raya disappeared at EXACTLY the same time that Alain Poiraud passed away.... Go figure.... I do believe there was a guy named Joćo that worked for him but the email responses and many of the internet postings were that of Alain posing as Joćo.

Alain had a huge hatred for everything Rocna and Manson so take what he said with a grain of salt. Sadly he never could build a better anchor than the Spade, despite multiple attempts. He was a great anchor designer though...

The whole anchor underworld can get pretty sleazy. Just enter www dot ancoralatina dot com (the old web address of Alain's company that made the Raya) into your address bar and see what pops up?????

That's right the minute Alain Poiraud passed away, and his web domain lapsed for a split second, the Smith's of Rocna fame jumped in and picked it up redirecting all Ancora Latina traffic to the Peter Smith / Rocna page.... Peter Smith apparently had no love lost for Alain either so much so that he found it perfectly ethical to pilfer a dead mans web site......
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 12-28-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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  #212  
Old 12-28-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
The Manson Supreme 25 is more than enough anchor for a Bristol 29.9 unless you plan on anchoring in hurricane force winds..

Be aware that "Joćo" was really Alain Poiraud pulling a fast one on every body.. He hid behind this moniker because he had sold Spade, and rumor/word on the street was that he had "taken" some proprietary designs that were supposedly sold with the Spade transaction. So he started a new company and hid himself from it as the real owner instead using Joćo who incidentally wrote and responded nearly word for word verbatim the way Alain did for so many years....

I own one of Alain's Oceanne/Sword anchors plus two Spade's.. I actually caught Alain in his little scam (long story that could create an entire thread) during some email conversations.

Funny enough that Joćo & Raya disappeared at EXACTLY the same time that Alain Poiraud passed away.... Go figure.... I do believe there was a guy named Joćo that worked for him but the email responses and many of the internet postings were that of Alain posing as Joćo.

Alain had a huge hatred for everything Rocna and Manson so take what he said with a grain of salt. Sadly he never could build a better anchor than the Spade, despite multiple attempts. He was a great anchor designer though...

The whole anchor underworld can get pretty sleazy. Just enter www dot ancoralatina dot com (the old web address of Alain's company that made the Raya) into your address bar and see what pops up?????

That's right the minute Alain Poiraud passed away, and his web domain lapsed for a split second, the Smith's of Rocna fame jumped in and picked it up redirecting all Ancora Latina traffic to the Peter Smith / Rocna page.... Peter Smith apparently had no love lost for Alain either so much so that he found it perfectly ethical to pilfer a dead mans web site......
Why is it that they all act like bottom feeders?
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Old 12-28-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
...

Be aware that "Joćo" was really Alain Poiraud pulling a fast one on every body.. He hid behind this moniker because he had sold Spade, and rumor/word on the street was that he had "taken" some proprietary designs that were supposedly sold with the Spade transaction. So he started a new company and hid himself from it as the real owner instead using Joćo who incidentally wrote and responded nearly word for word verbatim the way Alain did for so many years....

I own one of Alain's Oceanne/Sword anchors plus two Spade's.. I actually caught Alain in his little scam (long story that could create an entire thread) during some email conversations.

Funny enough that Joćo & Raya disappeared at EXACTLY the same time that Alain Poiraud passed away.... Go figure.... I do believe there was a guy named Joćo that worked for him but the email responses and many of the internet postings were that of Alain posing as Joćo.

Alain had a huge hatred for everything Rocna and Manson so take what he said with a grain of salt. Sadly he never could build a better anchor than the Spade, despite multiple attempts. He was a great anchor designer though...

The whole anchor underworld can get pretty sleazy. Just enter www dot ancoralatina dot com (the old web address of Alain's company that made the Raya) into your address bar and see what pops up?????

That's right the minute Alain Poiraud passed away, and his web domain lapsed for a split second, the Smith's of Rocna fame jumped in and picked it up redirecting all Ancora Latina traffic to the Peter Smith / Rocna page.... Peter Smith apparently had no love lost for Alain either so much so that he found it perfectly ethical to pilfer a dead mans web site......
Probably you are right but Joćo is a Portuguese/Brazilian name and there was a Brazilian firm in S. Paulo that manufactured those anchors and yes, the design was very similar to the one Spade manufactured from some time ant that they called Oceane so I guess we can conclude it was the same designer. Even so the design was different particularly in what regards its shank.

I don't think the objective was to produce a better anchor than the Spade but a less complicated to build, a much less expensive anchor, but a good anchor nevertheless.

I have heard many flattering comments about the Raya anchor by his users and the question that remains is how better was the Raya regarding the Oceane since for what I have heard that was not very good, not even in its posterior development (Sword). I don't believe I had saw an anchor test with a Raya, or maybe I have and didn't notice. Do you have tried a Raya?

The Oceane:



The Raya:



The Raya disappeard mysteriously in 2009 but then it appeared the Boss from Mason that it is much similar to the Oceane one:



that they announce it as:

Our new anchor (your ultimate safety device) has been designed to operate in all seabeds, a truly multipurpose anchor. .. The patented features, design and robust construction make it set immediately and hold during the worst of conditions. Use a Manson Boss to sleep easy ...Ensure the fastest set in even the most demanding seabed conditions... Raising the holding power by forcing the flukes downwards creating a minimum of 28% deeper setting than other new-generation anchors.

So we would think that an anchor that sets 28% deeper than other new-generation anchors would be a better anchor...but they say about other of their anchors, the Supreme:

The design brief given was to create the highest holding - fastest setting - fixed shank anchor in the world. ..

I had saw some brands saying that they have the best anchor, the one with more holding power but having the same brand calming about two different models that each one claims the title for the best anchor and the best holding power, it is a kind of a must!!!!

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-28-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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  #214  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Paulo, yes, I have a Raya; what I have is a Raya Tempest 800, a two-piece anchor with a demountable shank. The shank pulls up through a sturdy collar built onto the top of the fluke, and it's held in place by an interference fit. It stored flat in the shallow anchor locker of my MacGregor 26X, Bossa Nova; it assembles with no tools (well, a shackle-wrench to attach the rode), and that shank is not coming out of the fluke short of tearing the fluke apart.

When I got my Bristol 29.9, Halcyon, it came with a 25-lb Delta, a fixed-shank plow that simply didn't hold the first night I spent on the hook in the new boat. I still had the MacGregor, and with it, the Raya - which held perfectly and tenaciously in the same place where the Delta had failed me. If the Raya had fit below my roller-furler drum on my anchor roller, I might be using it now as my primary anchor; as it is, I've stowed it below-decks and I have it ready to use as a back-up to the 25-lb Manson Supreme that replaces the Delta.

I am certainly not going to say "the Raya is best, or better," than other scoop anchors; only that it suited my needs on Bossa Nova, and it suits me as a good backup on Halcyon.
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Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Questioning whether I own both is a more politically correct way of stating what my friend. You are so much the better person.

I have stated long before in this thread when I purchased my Mantus. I also stated the reason was that I was happy to see that there was a way of achieving an emergency/ second anchor with the abilities of the Rocna/ Manson new generation type anchors. Having utilized a number of times after I received it I am confident that it will. See I dont have to perform some silly test of putting them side by side on a table and letting some ametuer explain the physics of the anchor. Even us amatuers can descern from 20 ft away that the build is basically the same.

It is a copycat anchor with a few differences ( obvious again or it couldnt be patented), and the fact that it came along after Rocna/ Manson doesnt mean it isnt as effective, nor does it mean it is more so. In fact most of us ( by the way do you have a Rocna/ Manson to compare it with...maybe youd like to put them on a table and take a picture) who have used both shown NEGLIABLE differences in the setting holding abilities. That makes sense as there is very negliable differences in the the designs.

I am sure when someday a reputable non biased organization like PS includes it in one of their tests. I think this is what Paulo was driving at. The results will reflect that. We wont have to be dependent on relying on amateur U Tube tests which show only the successfull stories and obviously have no baseline of equality a real test would. Till then we will have to listen to testimonials from purchasers and company spokesmen, even those who before have posed as just interested members (Redsky).

Listening to a user of a Mantus is tantamount to listening to the user of as ROCNA. Most Rocna owners have effused confidence and only positives about their anchors. The real negative was the president of the companies boasts/ attutide and their misrepresenting later produced Chinese Rocnas of different metalurgy which has been corrected.

To me the new generation anchors (Manson, Rocna, and now mantus) designs are similar and represent a step forward in anchor designs of an anchor which does well in most varied applications. To find one which can be carried as a spare broken apart for space considerations is what drove me to buy the Mantus. I was never worried about the bolts or quality of it as it appears to be well made.
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Take it out of the BOX and give it a shot, you might even like it....
Holding Power Difference examined:



by the way, any one can do this at home
Happy New Year Netters!!!!
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Last edited by Mantus Anchors; 12-29-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Questioning whether I own both is a more politically correct way of stating what my friend. You are so much the better person.

I have stated long before in this thread when I purchased my Mantus. I also stated the reason was that I was happy to see that there was a way of achieving an emergency/ second anchor with the abilities of the Rocna/ Manson new generation type anchors. Having utilized a number of times after I received it I am confident that it will. See I dont have to perform some silly test of putting them side by side on a table and letting some ametuer explain the physics of the anchor. Even us amatuers can descern from 20 ft away that the build is basically the same.

It is a copycat anchor with a few differences ( obvious again or it couldnt be patented), and the fact that it came along after Rocna/ Manson doesnt mean it isnt as effective, nor does it mean it is more so. In fact most of us ( by the way do you have a Rocna/ Manson to compare it with...maybe youd like to put them on a table and take a picture) who have used both shown NEGLIABLE differences in the setting holding abilities. That makes sense as there is very negliable differences in the the designs.

I am sure when someday a reputable non biased organization like PS includes it in one of their tests. I think this is what Paulo was driving at. The results will reflect that. We wont have to be dependent on relying on amateur U Tube tests which show only the successfull stories and obviously have no baseline of equality a real test would. Till then we will have to listen to testimonials from purchasers and company spokesmen, even those who before have posed as just interested members (Redsky).

Listening to a user of a Mantus is tantamount to listening to the user of as ROCNA. Most Rocna owners have effused confidence and only positives about their anchors. The real negative was the president of the companies boasts/ attutide and their misrepresenting later produced Chinese Rocnas of different metalurgy which has been corrected.

To me the new generation anchors (Manson, Rocna, and now mantus) designs are similar and represent a step forward in anchor designs of an anchor which does well in most varied applications. To find one which can be carried as a spare broken apart for space considerations is what drove me to buy the Mantus. I was never worried about the bolts or quality of it as it appears to be well made.
Setting ability explored on a hard clay bottom:



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  #217  
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...



Hummmm!!! you cannot see that the chain on the Mason is shorter and that will have predictable effects?

Even if you have a god anchor (I wait for serious testing to see the results) do you think this kind of "tests" will give you credibility and help to sell your anchors?
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Hummmm!!! you cannot see that the chain on the Mason is shorter and that will have predictable effects?

Even if you have a god anchor (I wait for serious testing to see the results) do you think this kind of "tests" will give you credibility and help to sell your anchors?
Its called foreshortening :
Perspective (graphical) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
you can count the links you will see they are all there
WE CAN ONLY TRY TO BE HONEST, THE TRUST WE HAVE TO EARN

We would love nothing more than an independent assessment, unfortunately by the virtue that they are independent tests we do not control who and when does them.... Further to test the setting ability of an anchor, a magazine would have to go to different locations known to be difficult and test there. To date no one has been willing to pony up the money to do that... so do not expect it anytime soon.....
So as sad as this is what you have is cruisers testimonials and Yes our "demo" videos to go on... HOWEVER WE WANT TO HAVE YOUR RESPECT, SO IF THERE IS ANYTHING YOU WANT US TO DO IN THE FUTURE OR A PLACE TO VISIT, OR TO BE DIRECTLY INVOLVED.... WE ARE THERE!!!
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Sure...I was a teacher of that, I mean perspective and I can tell you that one is shorter than the other.

For having your anchor seriously tested is pretty easy: you have just to send a letter to the main sail magazines that make anchor testing regularly and say that you would like to have your anchor tested on the next group of anchor testing. That you are available to send them an anchor with the right dimensions for the effect and that you are, at the same time asking them to notify you regarding the convenient date. Not dificult

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Sure...I was a teacher of that, I mean perspective and I can tell you that one is shorter than the other.

For having your anchor seriously tested is pretty easy: you have just to send a letter to the main sail magazines that make anchor testing regularly and say that you would like to have your anchor tested on the next group of anchor testing. That you are available to send them an anchor with the right dimensions for the effect and that you are, at the same time asking them to notify you regarding the convenient date. Not dificult

Regards

Paulo
Paulo we have done that with every major publication.... and have not been able to generated interest to date..... any assistance is welcome.... if you watch the video carefully i think you can convince yourself that the chain is the same length...
PS I was not kidding the video is in HD, count the links....
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