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post #231 of 291 Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Hmmmm....

Everything about the Rocna came from someone else's designs.

The Bügelanker or Wasi (circa 1997) was first or second of the "hoops" if you count Rex Francis Sarca (circa 1996) as a hoop anchor.

If the Manson Supreme is a "copy" of a Rocna than the Rocna is a copy of the Bügel/Wasi.

Peter Smith himself admitted to borrowing the shank design from a Delta Fast Set and the Spade shape from Alain Poiraud's Spade, hmmm copy....? He stole the hoop from Bügel/Wasi (1997), Rex Francis (1996) or Peter Bruce (US Patent 3,777,695) depending on how far back you want to go...

Rex Francis at Anchor Right has been using hoops since 1996 on his designs and Peter Bruce was the first to show a patent on the hoop US Patent 3,777,695.....

Rex Francis also invented the "Rock Slot". This idea was stolen by not only Manson but also by ROCNA!!! Craig Smith then BLATANTLY lied and said that they had never stolen the rock slot when a boater posted a picture of a Rocna with a Rock Slot. Craig even went so far as to claim the guy photo shopped the picture basically publicly insinuating the guy was a liar.....

Oh look a Rock Slot on a ROCNA stolen from Rex Francis/Anchor Right:

Rocna Anchor


Let's be realistic here, the Rocna anchor IS ALSO A COPY.

To give Peter Smith or Craig Smith a pass and blame it all on the Bambury brothers makes me sick to my stomach.. Come on Dave, you can do better..... Craig Smith was right in there with the BLATANT lies and deceit while Peter tried to stay out of the limelight so he could perhaps wipe his hands of it.. As far as I am concerned it was all part of Peter's clever marketing ploy.

Peter and Craig Smith will NEVER get a pass from me and until Peter Smith is 100% removed from Rocna licensing, royalties etc.. They will never get another red cent from me for their dispicable lies, deceit and behavior..

Sorry to Canada Metals, they are a good company, but when you jump in bed with people like that you get what you get.

Rocna was a tad late in the copying game to call the Manson a "copy"... The two anchors are as widely different in shape angles and design as the Wasi and Sarca are....... They only "look" similar as they do to the Bügel/Wasi, Manson Supreme, Rocna, Mantus etc......

If you want to protect intellectual property perhaps an Anchor Right or a Wasi product is in your future because the Rocna employs LOTS of copying........


The only reason anyone believes the Manson Supreme is a knock off is because, like most anything Rocna did, they told some mis-truths, some BLATANT LIES, and had IMHO a very cleaver internet bully marketing scheme.....

I mean seriously how could we forget the Smith's publicly bashing the "rock slot" on the Manson Supreme (invented by Anchor Right). They then turned around and COPY the slot themselves..... Hello pot....

When you spend your efforts in hundreds of posts over 4-5 years disparaging the Manson Supreme and calling it a knock off, then say things like this:



That comment was a bash on a guy who was at a boat show and took a photo of a Rocna with a slot and Craig Smith, an employee of Rocna and the son of the inventor called him a liar and accused him of using Photoshop...


Terrible idea to copy another product? Or is it just a terrible idea???

Craig Smiths Response to Alain Poiraud Regarding Rock Slots


These were the days hypocrisy & dishonesty at its best, by the Rocna team, WHICH INCLUDED THE SMITHS!!!
+1000.

Unfortunately, you just disagreed with Ausp. Say hello to his ignore list.


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post #232 of 291 Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
+1000.

Unfortunately, you just disagreed with Ausp. Say hello to his ignore list.
Dave is a pretty reasonable guy, IMHO, so I doubt that will happen. I am just surprised by his take on all this, especially his take on Rocna not copying.. I would expect that sort of support from others I know, but did not expect if from Dave...

Disclaimer: I own & use a Rocna but still to this day find their (The Smith's & Bambury's) behavior & ethics sickening & despicable. Some of the worst I have seen in this industry. Sadly it has become a real black eye on the anchor industry as a whole and thanks to them it is likely no one will ever trust what any anchor manufacturer says..

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post #233 of 291 Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Dave is a pretty reasonable guy, IMHO, so I doubt that will happen. I am just surprised by his take on all this, especially his take on Rocna not copying.. I would expect that sort of support from others I know, but did not expect if from Dave...

Disclaimer: I own & use a Rocna but still to this day find their (The Smith's & Bambury's) behavior & ethics sickening & despicable. Some of the worst I have seen in this industry. Sadly it has become a real black eye on the anchor industry as a whole and thanks to them it is likely no one will ever trust what any anchor manufacturer says..
Yeah, I think you're pretty safe on staying off his naughty list. Heh-heh.

I agree though that it's pretty hard to stomach ANYONE defending Rocna in ANY way - especially someone like Ausp who's been around here for a while and had to have seen a lot of this play out.

At the end of the day, as I said, I like what Mantus is doing. I actually thought the holding power test rig was pretty smart. It very clearly illustrated the performance of each anchor in that particular condition. Sure, it wasn't precise, but it was compelling.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing some "scientific" testing on holding power for the Mantus vs. the others. I wish the mags would pick this up (per Mantus' requests) and do some testing. There are interested readers out there.

As for the question above regarding what the anchor would do in a big wind shift...doesn't that come down again to setting ability? In other words, if you get a 180 degree shift and the anchor twists out, it's the ability to quickly set again that is the primary factor?

If so, Mantus seems to be a very good choice. I don't know, I'm just having a hard time seeing the downsides here.


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post #234 of 291 Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

out of curiosity what steel(I see they are hot dipped galvanised now) are these new generation anchors using? I really need to start thinking about having a decent anchor down here.

I want to make one! yay

PLUS like zeehag I havent seen any stuff dropped by my boat

sooooooooooooooooooo...

3/8ths 304 stainless work?

Islander 36 now FOR SALE!
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post #235 of 291 Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah, I think you're pretty safe on staying off his naughty list. Heh-heh.

I agree though that it's pretty hard to stomach ANYONE defending Rocna in ANY way - especially someone like Ausp who's been around here for a while.

At the end of the day, as I said, I like what Mantus is doing. I actually thought the holding power test rig was pretty smart. It very clearly illustrated the performance of each anchor in that particular condition. Sure, it wasn't precise, but it was compelling.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing some "scientific" testing on holding power for the Mantus vs. the others. I wish the mags would pick this up (per Mantus' requests) and do some testing. There are interested readers out there.

As for the question above regarding what the anchor would do in a big wind shift...doesn't that come down again to setting ability? In other words, if you get a 180 degree shift and the anchor twists out, it's the ability to quickly set again that is the primary factor?

If so, Mantus seems to be a very good choice. I don't know, I'm just having a hard time seeing the downsides here.
Don't hold your breath on mags doing tests. Their tests are very often as badly reported as a manufacturers test data is.

I have the entire data set, the data behind the data (multiple Excel spread sheets worth of raw data) for the Sail Magazine tests from a number of years ago. (Don't ask where I got it that is classified)

Suffice it to say the way that data was presented was a GROSS misrepresentation of the facts contained within the data!! Rocna then took that data and twisted it even more to the point where Sail magazine made them pull a "glossy" they had that used the Sail Mag logo on.. The Sail mag data was poor and then Rocna "extrapolated" it to be utter rubbish. All this and they really had NO REASON TO DO THAT, their data looked pretty impressive.....

If you want testing data do as I do and do your own!

That said there are some good guys in the industry. Greg of Mantus has been brutally honest and up front with me. I like that. He told me up front that my shank was made of mild steel with no BS about it.. Greg IMHO is beginning to get a little carried away with the "slick" marketing and I worry about that as I don't want him to become another CS. He is genuinely a very nice and honest guy who is very passionate about his product. I strongly disagree with Greg's "hoopless" path and think it is a mistake but its not my company. Franklin Gray they guy who did the pulls on that last video also disagrees with Greg on this.

Brian from Fortress has also been a very straight shooter and Ned Wood of Manson has also been a very straight shooter with me (despite that they knock everything off)

The guys from Ultra seem good but upon close examination of their mini test anchors you drag through the mud at shows, it is clear to see they too are being a tad misleading. (at the Maine Boat Builders Show I was able to take some critical measurements off their mini's and transfer them to my own larger versions, not very accurate at all). The geometries they use on some of those mini anchors are not properly scaled which could certainly lead to a "misrepresentation" of performance...

Keep in mind that the "balance beam" testing jig was invented by Rex of Anchor Right. It was not Greg's idea but it is a good way to demonstrate holding comparisons. Rex has been doing this for years...

I have piles of my own data that I will NEVER publish because it is for ME, MYSELF and I. I use it to choose the best performing anchor for my cruising waters (5000 pound digital load cell, high HP pull boat and LOTS of anchors to play with).. I will not publish it because I don't want to have to deal with "anchor threads" simply not worth my time......

I can tell you from testing my own anchors for years and years that it is NOT easy work and takes considerable time if you want to be fair and equal. I want to be fair and equal because I physically OWN all my anchors and only want the best on my bow I have no ulterior motives to have one test better than the other. My motive is to keep my family off the granite coastline of the NE....

Two anchors I would love to try are the Ultra and Sarca Excel.. I suspect both would out perform my hoops in deep set holding power......

All I will say about my hoops is they all perform very similarly. The Mantus does have a slight edge in initial set, as in nearly immediate under most all conditions, but once set I can't really tell the difference, and the Manson & Rocna both set EXTREMELY well and reliably too. If my Mantus fit my bow better it would be my primary..

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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

can I get a quote for shipping to el salvador? just curious

well no mantus for me anytime soon

$400 for shipping bummer

any guys coming down soon, season is in full swing! come on down to el salvador please!

Islander 36 now FOR SALE!
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post #237 of 291 Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Everything about the Rocna came from someone else's designs.
That's what I meant about derivative works. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." (Isaac Newton) Integrated circuits would not have been invented without the foundational work on transistors.

The Delta anchor design owes something to CQR - it's just better. As you note the Rocna owes a good bit to previous designs including the Bugel. I seem to recall Peter Smith saying as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Peter Smith himself admitted to borrowing the shank design from a Delta Fast Set and the Spade shape from Alain Poiraud's Spade, hmmm copy....? He stole the hoop from Bügel/Wasi (1997), Rex Francis (1996) or Peter Bruce (US Patent 3,777,695) depending on how far back you want to go...
Sure. That's all within the realm of accepted derivational work. Patent law even provides for limited royalties to the originator in some cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Let's be realistic here, the Rocna anchor IS ALSO A COPY.
To me it's a derivation. To take the best of previous art and put it together is considered creativity in patent law (as I understand it - IANAL).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
To give Peter Smith or Craig Smith a pass and blame it all on the Bambury brothers makes me sick to my stomach.. Come on Dave, you can do better..... Craig Smith was right in there with the BLATANT lies and deceit while Peter tried to stay out of the limelight so he could perhaps wipe his hands of it.. As far as I am concerned it was all part of Peter's clever marketing ploy.
A reasonable conclusion, true or not. I'm less sure. A lot depends on just when the material changes happened and who knew what and when. We'll probably never know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Rocna was a tad late in the copying game to call the Manson a "copy"... The two anchors are as widely different in shape angles and design as the Wasi and Sarca are....... They only "look" similar as they do to the Bügel/Wasi, Manson Supreme, Rocna, Mantus etc......
I take you at your word. I have looked at Supremes and Rocnas side-by-side but have not measured the angles or lined the shaft angles up.

So perhaps I should have ethical issues with both Manson and Rocna. *grin*

Now I have to dig out a protractor and tape measure and head for West Marine.

sail fast and eat well, dave
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post #238 of 291 Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah, I think you're pretty safe on staying off his naughty list. Heh-heh.

I agree though that it's pretty hard to stomach ANYONE defending Rocna in ANY way - especially someone like Ausp who's been around here for a while and had to have seen a lot of this play out.

At the end of the day, as I said, I like what Mantus is doing. I actually thought the holding power test rig was pretty smart. It very clearly illustrated the performance of each anchor in that particular condition. Sure, it wasn't precise, but it was compelling.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing some "scientific" testing on holding power for the Mantus vs. the others. I wish the mags would pick this up (per Mantus' requests) and do some testing. There are interested readers out there.

As for the question above regarding what the anchor would do in a big wind shift...doesn't that come down again to setting ability? In other words, if you get a 180 degree shift and the anchor twists out, it's the ability to quickly set again that is the primary factor?

If so, Mantus seems to be a very good choice. I don't know, I'm just having a hard time seeing the downsides here.
The problem with "scientific testing" is that there are too many variables to do a truly scientific test. Just like the beach videos, too much variability in the sand, just a few inches can be a big difference in density of sand, and therefore holding. You can perhaps just happen to hit a rock or something in the sand and kick it out. I don't think they meant it to be deceptive, but I see issues with there tests not really looking to be unbiased. You would have to sift out the sand, then pack it to a consistent bed, and it would only test one bed type. How can you get a consistent rock or weed bed to test? It seems to me most importantly that the "new style" anchors seem to work better from all accounts. I don't think there is that huge of a difference between the major players. As long as you feel the manufacturer will stand behind the product and uses quality materials then I think you will get a good product. All of the "new" anchors seem to be close enough in design I doubt you would really see a difference in real world use. It is not like in the days of truly different designs between CRQ, Bruce, Danforth. Just find one that fits your bow roller and you are likely to be happy.
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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The problem with "scientific testing" is that there are too many variables to do a truly scientific test. Just like the beach videos, too much variability in the sand, just a few inches can be a big difference in density of sand, and therefore holding. You can perhaps just happen to hit a rock or something in the sand and kick it out. I don't think they meant it to be deceptive, but I see issues with there tests not really looking to be unbiased. You would have to sift out the sand, then pack it to a consistent bed, and it would only test one bed type. How can you get a consistent rock or weed bed to test? It seems to me most importantly that the "new style" anchors seem to work better from all accounts. I don't think there is that huge of a difference between the major players. As long as you feel the manufacturer will stand behind the product and uses quality materials then I think you will get a good product. All of the "new" anchors seem to be close enough in design I doubt you would really see a difference in real world use. It is not like in the days of truly different designs between CRQ, Bruce, Danforth. Just find one that fits your bow roller and you are likely to be happy.

The ultimate "fair" and more scientific test for holding power would be a massive test tank, 80' long X 10' wide by 6' deep or so, with known consistent sifted media & water in it.

The machine would be on a vibrating base, like a soil tamper, and vibrate the media/water back to the same consistency after each drag. Drags and loading would all be computer controlled so as to impart no variations in testing.. Then and only then can truly fair holding capacity comparisons take place with a known consistent media...

With a test like this we can then A/B holding power for that particular media & anchor which could be loosely extrapolated to "general" holding power ratings across other mediums...

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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
The ultimate "fair" and more scientific test for holding power would be a massive test tank, 80' long X 10' wide by 6' deep or so, with known consistent sifted media & water in it.

The machine would be on a vibrating base, like a soil tamper, and vibrate the media/water back to the same consistency after each drag. Drags and loading would all be computer controlled so as to impart no variations in testing.. Then and only then can truly fair holding capacity comparisons take place with a known consistent media...

With a test like this we can then A/B holding power for that particular media & anchor which could be loosely extrapolated to "general" holding power ratings across other mediums...
Curious if you did any testing on a Northill anchor? I had one, since given to my son in law. It never dragged and always set easily. The only drawback might be if you swung 180 degrees the line could possibly wrap around the fluke sticking up?

I used to see lots of them, some "home made", on commercial boats here on the west coast.

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