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  #41  
Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

in Some cases, bolts/rivots are better than welding! Not sure if this is the case..........not sure the bolts would worry me too much.

is there a 9lb version or there abouts?

Marty
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  #42  
Old 07-03-2012
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Preying Mantus

Marty we do have 8 lbs and 13 lbs models. You can see sizing guide and available sizes on
Mantus Anchor Page. on our website.
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Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Since you asked so politely ... *grin*

Caveat - I watched once through on my phone and paused at the graphs so I may have missed something.

I saw really outstanding performance from CQR in one particular bottom that surprises me. I saw generally low performance from Rocna that surprised me.

We got really pounded by TS Debby here and are still in recovery so Internet is up and down, slow when we have it. I'll be happy to look more carefully in a few days. Do you have a test protocol? Did you do 30 or more sets of each anchor in each location to get some statistical significance? I did like what I saw of your test set-up. If you meet professional academic standards have you considered writing a paper for a peer-reviewed journal? The real science would be cool to see from someone. I've been working on a protocol off and on for a couple of years that would allow truly apple-to-apples comparisons of multiple evaluations at multiple sites. I need a civil engineer or ocean engineer with chops for saturated soils to finish and publish. Anyway - that's a digression.

Best of luck with your product.
Dave, we have four different videos posted, in the off the boat test in galveston... Where we are using a shrimp boat we pulled 3 times per anchor...
Per location. When Cqr And Delta actually set in softer bottoms they did not show to be inferior to Rocna, in hard sandy mud Rocna was second best. Also note we used a 35lbs Cqr. The major problem we found is bottom often changes very quickly and it is difficult to drop in identical bottom every time. What usefull from this are the trends, andbthere was not much variation between the three attempts.
We were testing how mantus anchor performs in progressively more challenging hard packed bottom as compared to the rest. We will continue to test and post our results.
I hope this helps.
Greg

Last edited by Mantus Anchors; 07-03-2012 at 11:04 AM.
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  #44  
Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Caveat - I watched once through on my phone and paused at the graphs so I may have missed something.
I went back and looked more carefully. The relative performance of Rocna, Spade, Delta, and CQR do not match either previous evaluations or more personal experience in bottoms similar to those you tested in.

Ignoring my own experience, if you had compared your findings with previous evaluations and either found and corrected your methodology or developed a reasonable explanation for the differences your findings would be more credible.

I suggest that the greatest shortfalls in anchor tests have been:

1. Inadequate number of pulls (for statistical significance should be 30)
2. Inadequate range of anchor sizes for each anchor type (generally one of each size - it would be great to see three or even five)
3. Failure to measure and record projected surface area (data which you do in fact show)
4. Failure to measure and record soil characteristics (shear strength for example)

There isn't a lot of good scientific method in the anchor wars.
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  #45  
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Oops - I was working on my post while you were posting.

The problem with truly scientific testing is the time and expense of execution.

While I have some doubts about the precision of your results it does look to me, superficially, that you have a product that should perform much like the other new generation anchors (Rocna, Spade, Raya, Manson Supreme) out in the world.

Best of luck to you moving forward.
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  #46  
Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Greg,

Thank you for 'coming on board' to discuss this anchor with us! It looks interesting to me as a 'backup' or 'big backup / storm' anchor, even though I do have my reservations about the bolts.

A few years ago I bought a Raya Tempest 800 to use on my trailer-sailer, a MacGregor 26X - this is a 7.5 kg anchor that's similar to the Spade, but it has a wedge-fitting removable shank that pulls up (from the underside) through a sturdy welded receiver collar in the fluke. It could be bolted in place with one through-bolt, but the shank's wedge fit into the collar took all the stress; you simply couldn't have pulled it out without tearing apart the slot in the fluke! I still have the anchor, as it is just big enough to use as a backup on my current boat, a Bristol 29.9; I would love to find a bigger one for my next sailboat, but poor Jo„o has Gone West.

(I tried to upload a diagram from Jo„o's old web-site, that I'd saved on my computer. It shows the wedge fit of the shank in the fluke's receiver. Unfortunately, SailNet didn't cooperate.)

The notion of bolting the shank to the top of the fluke is what I find disquieting about the Mantus. The bolts appear to be a weak link in the anchor. I am with Sloop Jon B in this - if the shank pulled up through a receiver in the fluke, so that it was held in place by a heavy collar of welded steel, I'd be very very interested in the Mantus!

Last edited by Jeff_H; 07-04-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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  #47  
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

The shank looks mighty thin.
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  #48  
Old 07-05-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors View Post
There has been several readers expressing concern about the bolts and suggesting that bolts would be the weakest link.

The bolts are oversized with such margin that discussions regarding bolt strength are not really relevant. A single bolt is more than sufficient to deal with expected loads, even in a hurricane situation. Just think cleats on boats are bolted in, wheels on the car are bolted on. A grade 2 bolt has min yield stress 33000 psi, 1/2 inch bolt is good for approx 25000 pounds and we have 4 of them on our 35 and 45 pound models. These models are sized boats that weigh 15-20,000 pounds so you could literally suspend the boat of that bolt. For example expected loads on a 45 lbs anchor if properly sized for a boat are less than 10,000 even in the worst imaginable conditions. The chain, the cleat, or the shank hole will brake long before the bolts on the anchor will, not to mention the shank will bend. Now the reason we did not have the shank plate take the load is bc we found that a smooth bottom on the fluke is very important for penetration. Prototypes with shank slotted through the fluke did not do well in hard bottoms bc of added volume to drive through undisturbed hard clay for example. This is why Spade Anchor has difficulty in really dense soils, the nose has too much volume.
The nuts on our anchors are to be used with compression washers and grease and if you don't feel like ever taking the anchor apart until the time comes to re-galvanize it, than you can forget about the bolts after initial assembly.
We do offer a lifetime warranty on the anchor and all its parts.
I hope this alleviates some of the concerns raised about using bolts. Again remember bolts are on wheels of your car, attach rotors of the helicopter blades, there is a whole world bolted out there..... of-course size matters!

I hope this conversation alleviates some concern about the use of bolts in the expected load path on our anchor.

However, the discussion on bolts and anchors ability to break down for storage is a tangent. The main point I want to communicate and hopefully convince some of you
Is that Mantus Anchor's ability to DIG IN is unparalleled. This was the whole point of the design after all, otherwise there is no room for just another anchor.
Ok my rent is over.... Happy 4th everyone

Greg
Good answer, especially your point about added volume on hard bottoms.

I think what everyone is waiting for are indendant tests, on both holding and the bolts. You need to remember, we just went through a period whereby Rocna swore up and down of what strength steel they were using, yet when tested, it was found that they were lying. In fact, Rocna has now lowered their standards as opposed what was promoted for a very long time.

I'm discussing the Rocna fiasco because of the shadow of doubt that has been cast on any new anchor. That is just reality.

So, keep in mind that you are now claiming extraordinary holding power compared to other similar anchors. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, especially with the Rocna situation fresh in many peoples' minds.

May I suggest that the testing that needs to show will comprise of a number of things:
  • SHHP - A Lloyds certification would be very useful. For all size ranges.
  • Metallurgical specs that can be independently verified
  • Multiple independent anchoring tests. And yes, I recognize those may be difficult to arrange, but seeing the beach test is really not enough.

Good luck with your product, and please consider these points.

Others may expand on them. Your marketing to a skeptical audience. If you win them over by performance, you will have a winner.
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  #49  
Old 07-05-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

I apologize for the confusion, but do to the lack of communication Jeff was not informed that I am a paid advertiser, and I hope will remove this post once this gets cleared up.
Sincerely Greg
Mantus Anchors

Last edited by Jeff_H; 07-05-2012 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Jeff H can you contact me by phone 468 8784083
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  #50  
Old 07-05-2012
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Re: Another "Next Generation" anchor enters the market...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Sloop,

I have a 7.5kg bruce/lewmar knock off. 15' of 1/4HT chain and 1/2" rope IIRC. works well so far in some 25-30 knot winds. Somebody makes a 7 lb version, have toyed with one of them for my race anchor with 4' of 5/16" chain, IIRC that is the 1lb per foot size. Then going to 20-25' of chain on the 7.5, or going to a 10kg. Not sure really that a 10 would help much around here if I add some more chain frankly. Delta makes/made a 9 lb fastset which has been the one I have really toyed with. Lewmare makes an 11 lb bruce too. Could do that with 3' of 1/4 also. I do have a 5 lbs bruce, that has held me in some 10-15 knot stuff. I actually use that for a race buoy. But it did better than an equal lb danforth in equal winds while setting buoy. i also do not have to worry as much about resetting with the bruce when the tide wind shifts, like a danforth.

marty
About ten or twelve years ago we dragged our 33 pound genuine Bruce nearly 1/8 of a mile while the anchor remained set and this was at 9:1+ scope. This was on a 30' boat in very good holding mud. She just did not have the sheer holding power /surface area to deal with the 45-55 knot winds for that boat.. The Bruce is/was a great design but in my experience up-sizing them by TWO sizes is much more in-line with how they actually hold. Much has been written on properly sizing Bruce style anchors.. It is not necessarily the weight of the anchor but the surface area biting into the mud that matters...
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