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  #111  
Old 07-16-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

Bill-
"I have hank on's, they work well for me, and I like to be able to swap out a sail,"
I don't disagree with you, but note that any roller furling worth its salt has two slots in the extrusion, so you still can go forward to change headsails. In theory an extrusion should cost the same thing whether it has one slot or two in it although I'm sure there are some performance advocates who will say two slots means you've always got one favored side.
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Old 07-16-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

I guess bill means that he can switch out the sails before leaving the dock. Once I get to the marina, I decide which headsail to put on and I hank it on, leaving it on the deck. My father's boat has roller furling (and only 1 jib halyard). Unfurling then dropping the genoa while at the harbor when the wind is up and coming from aft is challenging and a royal pita. Doing it at sea is a pita as well, although the main can shelter the jib for the drop you still have that heaving pita foredeck to deal with.

That said, the bigger the boat the more rare these headsail changes will be. I have noticed in my very light displacement boat that 0-10 knots is genoa, 10-20 is working jib, and anything over that is 50% jib. Since the wind usually hovers between 5-15 knots, I use a different headsail almost every time I go out. This is different in my father's boat, a 12,000 pounder, which can hang on to the genoa comfortably until about 15 knots. So he is in genoa territory at least 80% of the time we go out sailing. Plus the boat has a bigger headsail, much more work to put it up and take it down, so the furler makes alot of sense for him.
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  #113  
Old 07-16-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
I guess bill means that he can switch out the sails before leaving the dock. Once I get to the marina, I decide which headsail to put on and I hank it on, leaving it on the deck. My father's boat has roller furling (and only 1 jib halyard). Unfurling then dropping the genoa while at the harbor when the wind is up and coming from aft is challenging and a royal pita. Doing it at sea is a pita as well, although the main can shelter the jib for the drop you still have that heaving pita foredeck to deal with.

That said, the bigger the boat the more rare these headsail changes will be. I have noticed in my very light displacement boat that 0-10 knots is genoa, 10-20 is working jib, and anything over that is 50% jib. Since the wind usually hovers between 5-15 knots, I use a different headsail almost every time I go out. This is different in my father's boat, a 12,000 pounder, which can hang on to the genoa comfortably until about 15 knots. So he is in genoa territory at least 80% of the time we go out sailing. Plus the boat has a bigger headsail, much more work to put it up and take it down, so the furler makes alot of sense for him.
Typical sail for me single handed on a 44 foot cutter. Leave Wallilabou in the lee of St Vincent with full main, staysail and 135 genoa in fluky 8 to 12 knots. Get to the North end of St Vincent roll away genoa and put 1st reef in main in preperation for the acceleration zone. 20 to 30 knots and a confused 2.5 m swell. After 5 miles the swell moderates a little but still lumpy and 2 m the wind drops to 18 to 22 and squares up a little. Leave the reef in and unroll 50 % of the genoa if we start to hit 9 knts too often I will roll it away.

By the time I am nearing St Lucia I usually have most of the genoa out.

As I reach St Lucia and start to encounter the lee I will unroll all of the genoa and eventually shake out the reef. But I have to watch out for the white horses that warn of the sudden squalls that can roll down from the Pitons and tell me to roll the genoa away again.

I have done this trip from Wallilabou up to Marigot Bay quite a few times and reckon on at least 6 changes to the size of the genoa and maybe as many as 12.

And that is why I and most other cruisers out here have roller reefing.
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Last edited by TQA; 07-16-2012 at 05:34 PM.
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  #114  
Old 07-17-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

2010 ARLI race we did 15 sail changes on the first night as it went from 0 to 20 to 0 to 20 to 0 to 20

Its was great fun
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  #115  
Old 07-17-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

My first roller furler was the best $80 I ever spent on rigging. It drastically enhanced safety on board ,being able to reef and furl the headsail, without leaving the cockpit. I put a genny on it, and have no reason to change it or take it down for decades. Sailing without one is just plain bad seamanship. Going from hank on headsails to a roller furler was like going from the stone age to the space age. I have had no problem with it in 30 years, and 6 Pacific crossings. I'd never cruise without one.
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  #116  
Old 07-18-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

For those wondering about solent stays. They are a PITA! My jeanneau has one, biggest sail that one can use at times is a 130-135 or so. My 140 does not like to tack around it to well, do not even ask about the 155, without someone up front literally moving the sail around.

At the end of the day....what is jib roller furling?!?!?!? not sue, never used itbut once or twice on other peoples boats. I would NOT go back to hank ons vs my tough luff. I have thought about getting an RF with a removable drum, as i spend more time racing with a crew than SH/DH with spouse etc. Even the few times I have raced in a DH mode, it is with folks in conditions that one can deal with being up front in Puget SOund.

IF Aac, has a Waquiez, and IIRC a 40s, and he is losing to a Jeanneau 409, he has some issues other than the boat. The 40s I raced on a few days last spring was a screamer, had no issues keeping up with J109's. Granted that owner had two mains he could choose from three or four HS's, sym and asym spins..........furler was removed while racing, on with a dacron of some sort for cruising, and the pentex main was replaced with a dacron main too.

I would also agree, an 85% fortriangle jib is handy when the 110 is too big with a reef or two, better than going ALL the way down to a storm jib.

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  #117  
Old 07-20-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

I think some concepts are getting combined for the purposes of discussion which are not inextricably linked.

Boltropes/luff tapes are an example. They're a separate issue, or at least separable, from roller reefing. By which I mean: Roller sails can have slides or slugs; non roller sails can have headfoils and boltropes.

I find it hard to comprehend that posters are claiming that boltrope sails into headfoils are easier to change than sails hanked to a stay.
This is true, I would venture, only at the dock, in a calm, or on a boat with multiple skilled practitioners available for each and every change.
I can only assume that this opinion is formed or informed by people who have no experience of trying to change such sails alone, offshore, in bad conditions.

There are ways of making it safe to change a hanked sail in such circumstances: heaving to (or running off and blanketing), downhaul lines, ties cowhitched to the lifelines, taking the halyard forward with you, etc etc. It's not elegant or racy, and it's probably hard to imagine for people who haven't been on boats where these routines are well rehearsed, but it's eminently doable and people are doing it every day.
In contrast, I reckon it really takes three people to change a big headsail with a boltrope on a 40' sailing yacht safely, in a breeze at sea.

The crux of the matter is that the entire leading edge of a hanked sail remains captive until after the sail is bagged.

A boltrope sail, once the luff escapes, is just not going to be possible to keep on the foredeck in big seas on your own*, even hove to, even blanketing. At some point, on some occasions, some part of it is going to blow overboard -- and then you're in trouble. After all, trawl nets are measured in inches per thread, not threads per inch.

OTOH, if the entire body of a hanked sail goes overboard, it's still attached by one long edge to the stay, so it can't fill like a drogue, and only a sausage tail can go over the side. Snug up and cleat off the sheet, slacken the halyard, go to the bow with the snapshackle end, and clip it to the top lifeline just ahead of where the 'sausage' first crosses over the lifelines. Now work your way aft, muscling the sail onboard, sliding the snapshackle under the sail aft as far as it will go each time, then using the halyard like a tire lever. Generally the halyard will stop the sail rejoining the tide, but if it's really nasty, use a few sail ties to strap the sausage to the bottom lifeline (up off the deck) as you go, even if you plan (as you should) to put the sail into a bag.
You need only go about one third of the foot length aft, then you can go to the sheet, wait for the right moment on a big wave, and use the sheet to flip the clew and the remaining corner of the sail onboard.
Replace the lifelines regularly if you make a habit of doing this!
This method keeps you inboard, and with your bum on or near the deck, where it belongs when working alone.


*UNLESS you modify the sail and the deck gear: eg fit eyelets behind the luff at regular intervals and keep a permanent downhaul line reeved from head to tack, passing alternately from one side of the sail through each eyelet to the other side all the way down. That line can be unclipped from the tack and run through a bullseye fairlead on the foredeck just aft of the tack fitting, with a cam cleat, for dropping the sail.
Take the tail of the halyard forrard with you when you go to drop it to control the speed. You probably can't do this from the cockpit because you're likely to need to do more stacking of the sail than is necessary with hanks.
Even then, many foils have their entry too low to the deck for this to be viable unless the sail is really pliable.
Incidentally, this is a better way of rigging a downhaul even for a hanked sail, IMO, than the usual 'through the hanks' method, except in this case it pays to have the option to run the tail to a cleat in the cockpit AS WELL as be optionally able to work it from the foredeck.

Alternatively I guess you could make a 'net' or skeletal sail to hoist outside a boltrope equipped sail before dropping it. Needn't be tall, or even triangular (could be quadrilateral with a batten along the top) just effectively to extend the fencing effect of the lifelines to maybe 10' off the deck - but frankly what a palaver.

Those who dismiss hanked sails as being akin to Amish transportation options are, I think, doing themselves and their intellect no favours.

My preference for an optimum medium-sized rig for safe handling, short- and single- handed, would have at least some of the following (presupposing a cutter rig):

Halyard winches at the mast (makes it easy to work the halyards from the foredeck as described, for one thing... but again, in more general terms, it's an instance where what is most convenient is not necessarily the same as what is best.)
The winches should be located so the tails can be led forward after wrapping round the winch. If they're also to be worked from aft, use a snatchblock at deck level.

A reliable, strong furler on the forestay, with a very torsionally stiff headfoil with twin grooves of substantial size, opposite each other.

Headsails fitted with metal slugs (ideally, titanium, polished, hard-anodised, then impregnated with teflon!). Definitely no boltropes/luff tapes for this kid.
Apart from anything else, they're too fragile, the sail is useless when they start to disintegrate, and they're hard to fix without running home to mum.

-- I find slides (ie female slugs) somewhat bulky, and too fiddly to fit onto the foil track. What's more, the extrusions to match are harder to find, and easier to damage. Magazine systems (which fit the slides automatically) seem to me a bit 'prima donna' in their performance -- and I wonder if they're perhaps a bit damage prone (or prone to damage other parts of the boat, sailbags etc while stowing or humping) for offshore long-term voyaging. However I've had limited exposure to them so it's largely speculation.

I would definitely stay with hanks for the inner forestay sails. Ideally the storm staysail would live permanently fitted to the stay, in a flush-deck locker at the foot of the stay, although draining such lockers is admittedly difficult. If this could be satisfactorarily arranged, the stay would keep going right down to the locker floor, at least in my dreams.
Such a sail could be shackled to the stay, which is my idea of salty, for a stormsail. I've never personally heard a row of hanks failing like machine gun fire, but hearing of it, from the mouths of people who have done, is sobering.

The best hanks ever crafted, to my way of thinking, are Wichard single-handed, lash on style. They work best on a rod stay or Dyform (stainless hanks and shackles are a bit unfriendly to wire).
If generously sized, these will not fail, and will outlast many sails.

On balance, even in my dreams, I'd probably opt to forgo the shackles and stow the stormsail in a locker with a hatch which could be tightly sealed, but preferably handy to the stay.

Last edited by Andrew Troup; 07-20-2012 at 03:46 AM.
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  #118  
Old 07-20-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by TQA View Post
Typical sail for me single handed
............reckon on at least 6 changes to the size of the genoa and maybe as many as 12.

And that is why I and most other cruisers out here have roller reefing.
There's another way to change the size of a headsail from the cockpit which offers some of the advantages of both hanks and rollers.

Slab reefing.

My offshore sailing started on a boat which was too small and tender to appeal to today's sensibilities, but we were barely out of school so it was what we could afford, and we had some interesting times over a twelve year period, still the most fun we've ever had ... but because of the tenderness, one thing we had to do was have the right amount of sail up, at all times, and it had to be in the right balance.

We had two slabs put in the #2 genoa, and that took it down to working jib size. If that was still too big it was time to swap to storm jib.

We worked on the deck gear and running rigging over a couple of years and got things to the point where, (sailing hard on the wind) we would routinely reef for individual puffs and shake out for lulls. From the cockpit, and with only two people and no autopilot, we could do it, and did do it, day and night, without a flog or a flub.
And we didn't pay a penalty we frankly couldn't afford, not just for the monetary cost of roller gear, but for the windage and weight aloft.
A small boat with a tall masthead rig doesn't have anything to give in either of those areas.

If anyone's interested I can put together some of the tips and tricks we learned.

Last edited by Andrew Troup; 07-20-2012 at 03:39 AM.
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  #119  
Old 07-20-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D





While in my cruising life i am all about EASY and it all works FINE furling boom included



In my J24 life we have hanks there are a LOT of aspects like shredding spinnakers that are less than thrilling






In my ongoing distance racing life while granted we have 5 to 7 people we have never lost or had and issue in over 30 years with a foil as the tack and clew are still locked down while your dealing with



This
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  #120  
Old 07-31-2012
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Re: Roller furling is so over rated :D

I have not sailed in years but am getting back into it and looking to purchase a 40 ish boat next year. Is there a difference between roller furling and roller reefing? How does the 'reefing' work? I am doing the ASA certs and the boats we are using our instructor says to either have all or nothing.
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