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  #11  
Old 04-13-2012
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

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  #12  
Old 04-13-2012
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
West is just a brand name that is heavily marketed and overpriced. Epoxy is epoxy is epoxy. It can be "tuned" by the selection of hardener for faster or slower curing and you can add damn near anything to it to make thickeners, fillers, fairing compounds etc. Those can also be "tuned" for specific purposes - strength, ease of sanding, waterproofing etc.

There's nothing magical about it, it's just a plastic resin, albeit probably the best and most versatile for boat uses. It's also pretty expensive. Find an industrial supplier and you'll save a bunch over retail type suppliers.
Are you kidding? This was my entire point. Epoxy is not Epoxy. When Don Casey or someone on this forum says to seal the deck core with epoxy they one type of epoxy. When they say they painted their deck with a two part epoxy they mean another and when they say they coated their iron keel with epoxy they are talking about another use. You can't interchangeably use the 5 minute epoxy at the drug store, or JB Weld, or a two-part epoxy deck paint. It's infinitely confusing and frustrating for someone new to watch someone else say "use epoxy". There are a vast number of different formulas, forms and concoctions of epoxy. Epoxy is not epoxy and when you're talking about it you should be somewhat specific.

If you know of a brand that produces forms of epoxy similar to West Systems at lower prices you should say what they are.
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Old 04-13-2012
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

Yeah, epoxy is all the same.
Wood is all the same.
Metal is all the same.
Canned food is all the same.

And as any zombie can tell you, brains is all the same. (Um,yum.)

West Systems is a premium name not because they are the only folks who can brew epoxy, but because they have an established track record for products that perform and endure, and a similar track record for customer service and technical support.

If I KNEW I could buy the exact same product at half the price, sure I'd vote with my wallet. But if you only want to do the job once and do it right, sometimes yes, you do pay for the reputation and assurance that the product will work. And with epoxy, that can mean "still working after 50 years". That's worth something.
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Old 04-13-2012
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

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Originally Posted by asdf38 View Post
Are you kidding? This was my entire point. Epoxy is not Epoxy. When Don Casey or someone on this forum says to seal the deck core with epoxy they one type of epoxy. When they say they painted their deck with a two part epoxy they mean another and when they say they coated their iron keel with epoxy they are talking about another use. You can't interchangeably use the 5 minute epoxy at the drug store, or JB Weld, or a two-part epoxy deck paint. It's infinitely confusing and frustrating for someone new to watch someone else say "use epoxy". There are a vast number of different formulas, forms and concoctions of epoxy. Epoxy is not epoxy and when you're talking about it you should be somewhat specific.

If you know of a brand that produces forms of epoxy similar to West Systems at lower prices you should say what they are.
Most common epoxy resins are produced from a reaction between epichlorohydrin and bisphenol-A, though the latter may be replaced by similar chemicals. The hardener consists of polyamine monomers, for example triethylenetetramine (TETA). West and others like MAS, System 3 and generic bulk epoxy are all just subtle variations on the same base product - some mix their hardeners for a 1 to 1 ratio for simplicity, some make it a 5 to 1 ratio so they can sell you their calibrated pumps and so forth.

The rest is simply modifiers like talc, glass balloons etc. Things like "5 Minute", JB Weld etc are merely pre-made combinations for convenience with specialized, small jobs. You can do the same thing yourself with available additives - mixing in aluminium powder gives a close approximation of JB Weld for example.

Epoxy paint is a whole separate product line from resin. When someone says "epoxy the deck" they are usually referring to filling or laminating or other repairs, not to painting it with 2-part paint. Also, I frequently see 2-part polyurethane paint referred to as "epoxy" and one part paints called such things as "epoxy modified" - that is just marketing. Real epoxy is 2 component - always.

I think you see it as more complicated than it really is - learning about all the different fillers can take some research but using the basic resin is no more difficult than regular polyester resin. I suggest you read the WEST web site - they did a lot of the development work on what has become the standard uses of epoxy. There is a huge amount of info on how it is, and can be used. Way too much to provide here in the sort of detail you seem to be after.
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Old 04-13-2012
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Yeah, epoxy is all the same.
Wood is all the same.
Metal is all the same.
Canned food is all the same.

And as any zombie can tell you, brains is all the same. (Um,yum.)

West Systems is a premium name not because they are the only folks who can brew epoxy, but because they have an established track record for products that perform and endure, and a similar track record for customer service and technical support.

If I KNEW I could buy the exact same product at half the price, sure I'd vote with my wallet. But if you only want to do the job once and do it right, sometimes yes, you do pay for the reputation and assurance that the product will work. And with epoxy, that can mean "still working after 50 years". That's worth something.
A little research and experience goes a long way. We used to have a local outfit - Industrial Formulators - that brewed epoxy that in many ways was better than West - Cold Cure was great for working near freezing temperatures, they had mixes for wet environments and so forth. They sold out to System Three who continue to produce those products.

Stone fabricators use large volumes of epoxy and I can tell you that they don't use West, they use industrial brands that are every bit as good. I have used more brands of epoxy than I can count and I have found many to be superior to West in many ways - West hardeners are far too fast IMO, even their "slow" hardeners kick very quickly for example.

I regard System Three to be about the best I have used overall.
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Old 04-13-2012
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

"Sadly now you've got to question everything he has said." is the only part of post quote not a joke. It is what I mean when I stand with hello sailor"s opinon. It is hard to joke an maybe no one should when its in print. I think most folks know hands will not be in props and ex-marines will not show up. It is good to have opinons. Pictures have been suggested. The cost of a new prop. The value of this boat and the rpm of the prop in use. How much will it be used and what type of use. Just to motor into the slip if the wind dies or to make a run out of a river channel with current and tide? What is the base metal of this prop? All of us could have better input if we can have more information
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I'm surprised no one has suggested the possibility of de-zincification. If metal is flaking off and appearing like corrosion, it could throw a blade. Have a prop shop look at it. If so, get a new one.

A poorly balanced prop can damage your cutlass bearing and possibly the transmission, engine mounts, stuffing box, etc. It wouldn't be a $5 experiment.
Agree, maybe find out why it is being "corroded"? How bad is it? Pictures maybe?
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

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Originally Posted by Chris12345 View Post
Yeah, sure.
It will throw a blade.
There is a pound of metal missing, the vibrations will tear the boat apart.
Without anyone noticing.
The butterfly effect will cause a tsunami.
And a nucular meltdown.

Do you know what de-zincification is?

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Old 04-13-2012
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
West hardeners are far too fast IMO, even their "slow" hardeners kick very quickly for example.
Interesting. usually I hear the opposite, that West takes forever to kick and cure.

I only use West for a few reasons. It works, it offers good coverage, the shelf life is decent, the batch consistency is great, and ALL of the chandleries and most of the lumber yards in my area stock it- so if I run out of anything, i can restock 7 days a week. This is important to me, because I don't know about you, but I never run out of hardenerat the end of a project, always in the middle.
And why is it that it's always hardener that comes up short?
Before I started using West, I ran the numbers on MAS, System 3, the loud mouth, EAST and West. When you compare coverage from a MIXED gallon, West is ahead of the pack, but the margin is slim. I'm buying it in gallons, and in volume the cost for most epoxies becomes pretty similar.

Oh, and those "overpriced' pumps are a whopping $15, and they have likely saved me $30 worth of wasted material, cleaning supplies, mixing cups and cursing and swearing.
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Re: Epoxy on the prop?

as to the topic at hand, I'm with the no 'poxy on da prop group. Epoxy is wonderful stuff but it doesn't fix everything.
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