Possible alternative to Reflectix? - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 
  #11  
Old 06-10-2012
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 71 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 8
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
If it doesn't work touching hull or foam without bubble wrap, why would it work any better with bubble wrap?
If reflective materials only work with air gap, the frugal mariner version doesn't work?
What do you mean it doesn't work touching the hull?

Reflectix has an air gap - the bubble wrap between the foil layers.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 06-10-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 377
Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Jgbrown is on a distinguished road
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

if you have reflectix sandwiched between foam and hull it is touching two surfaces, the air gap isn't present there either really. If the bubble wrap counts as the air gap, then closed celled foam on boats sides counts just as much I would think, but since it's R-value is higher it would be a little better? I just can't see how one works and the other doesn't, something fishy about that. I can see the argument for the reflective only working if exposed to air, because the heat will conduct through the closed cell foam, but then that applies to both just as much?

Hull/reflective layer/bubblewrap/reflective layer/foam/
is not that different from hull/reflective layer/foam/reflective layer/foam?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 06-11-2012
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 71 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 8
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
I just can't see how one works and the other doesn't, something fishy about that.
Which one isn't supposed to work?

As far as I know they all work to differing degrees. R value is one factor of course with foam winning over Reflectix. But the Reflectix is best at reducing the radiant. And the foam is best at the conductive.

If you are using only one make it closed cell foam. The Reflectix is an added bonus. This would be my choice for the hull. In the V-berth area I would insulate the most because that is where there is the most body heat near the hull sides when sleeping. My boat is getting a layer of Reflectix followed by 1/2" closed cell foam and then another layer of Reflectix, followed by wood trim in the V-berth area.

In the main cabin there are usually cabinets with dead space between the hull and any seating so a single layer of foam works well.

If you have to in some places use Reflectix by itself. This is not a bad choice for a location like the deck where the core is already acting as an insulator.

In all places whatever you use should be sealed well around the edges.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 06-11-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 377
Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Jgbrown is on a distinguished road
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

So where reflectix is a bonus, why not use just the attic reflective on top of the foam, cheaper, thinner. Does it's job without trying to do the foam's. Save the expensive reflectix for where I can't use the other stuff.
I am thinking 2 layers foam, 2 reflective, same as you basically, just in thinner layers and without the bubbles. total thickness 1/2-3/4"
I want the foam for it's sound deadening/impact(my head against ceiling/beams).

I wonder if it would be more efficient to have a layer of reflective on the inside, since it would reflect the energy before it warms the insulation and turns to conducted energy instead.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 06-11-2012
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 71 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 8
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
I want the foam for it's sound deadening/impact(my head against ceiling/beams).
You have to learn to duck where the headroom is restricted.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 06-11-2012
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 71 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 8
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
So where reflectix is a bonus, why not use just the attic reflective on top of the foam, cheaper, thinner. Does it's job without trying to do the foam's. Save the expensive reflectix for where I can't use the other stuff.
I am thinking 2 layers foam, 2 reflective, same as you basically, just in thinner layers and without the bubbles. total thickness 1/2-3/4"

I wonder if it would be more efficient to have a layer of reflective on the inside, since it would reflect the energy before it warms the insulation and turns to conducted energy instead.
The attic reflective is probably as effective as Reflectix as long as it is used with foam. As I posted a while ago Reflectix has increased in price since last year - I paid about 89 for the largest roll at Home Depot.

The foam I have and will use is Ethafoam in 1/2" thickness. If you are using 2 layers to get the thickness why not use a thicker foam - it is easier to apply.

I don't think you would gain anything by adding foil on the inside. I would make it the first layer.

A friend lives on a Spencer 35 that was insulated with 1/2" Ethafoam over 20 years ago. It is the warmest boat I have been on in cold weather. It has held up well. The only problem is that it can get dirty and in his case the cat has scratched it in a few places. I think the best solution (if you have a cat or not) is to line the insulation with something that can be wiped down easily.
My V-berth area has vertical beams glassed in 16" apart so the easy solution is to insulate between them to their 1" thickness and then line with something. I will probably use varnished wood strips here. In the lockers I plan to epoxy in strips the same thickness as the insulation and line with something like the plastic sheets that are about 1/16" to 1/8" thick and easy to keep clean.

Below the waterline I will not insulate I don't think. Under berths and seats one good solution is plastic carpet runner that has the protrusions on the back to grip a carpet. These will keep it off the hull and allow some air flow.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 06-11-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 377
Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Jgbrown is on a distinguished road
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

The 2 layers is to protect the middle reflective layer somewhat, the acoustic foam has a durable "skin" on it, also a reason I am looking to it instead of some other foams and should be ok so long as protected from major scratches etc, but easy to clean with a sponge. Then either building a strip ceiling(hard, I have to glass in the vertical parts as I haven't got any).
Also because in some areas I can get away with the thickness, others I cannot so it makes it easier to just have 1 type of foam(assuming I need only 1 roll).
I wonder if there would be a big benefit to having the reflective material as the inner layer, since it would reflect any radiant heat before it warmed the insulation, slowing the thermal transfer more than if it were in the middle. I am trying to figure out how to test that, perhaps some samples and a heater, or maybe I need to create a box. Not really sure how, but I think it could make a big difference.

If radiant heat hits the foam, and is conducted(but no longer radiant) through the foam, the middle layer is questionable at best and an inside layer would be much better. I know for camping pads, mylar top vs mylar middle does make a big difference.
I'd love to see how you do it someday soon, I'm de-molding and washing my reflectix for re-use. One area they used it in and shouldn't have was over the bolts that hold the deck to the hull. How hard is it to re-do these bolts(pull out, seal with butyl tape replace or put back). It'd give me peace of mind to know there's no crevice corrosion on them, and stop any water entry.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 06-11-2012
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 71 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 8
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

Radiant works both ways - in or out. Reflectix as the outside layer will keep the boat cooler in a warm climate.

The strips aren't hard to install. Epoxy either plywood solid wood strips to the hull on 16" centers after light sanding and acetone cleaning. They will have to be wedged in place overnight. You should be able to do this to any areas where it is needed in one day.

The Ethafoam I use is smooth on the surface and pretty easy to clean.

I wouldn't mess with the hull/deck joint. The only way to really re-bed it properly is to remove the deck from the hull. If it doesn't leak the bolts should be fine.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 06-11-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 377
Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Jgbrown is on a distinguished road
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

I was just thinking about all the bolts in it, should I pull them and re-bed, they seem to go right through and some have a bit of rusty looking discoloration underneath. Figured better safe than sorry is to pull them and clean and put back in. Radiant works both ways for sure, but it's heat out that I'm more worried about, so I'm not sure how it would benefit me on the hull side, other than if some radiant heat would pass right through the foam, and reflecting it back would help. After reading a bit more about the different types of heat transfer I think a reflective layer as the innermost layer makes the most sense, as it prevents radiant heat from hitting the foam as much as possible, rather than the inner layer of foam warming up, then reflecting the radiant heat back that passed through it. Perhaps I should put it outside too. I wonder though if it just touching foam(which would be warmed by the radiant heat, and therefore allow heat to conduct right through) is why it needs a complete air gap on one side.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 06-12-2012
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 71 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 8
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Re: Possible alternative to Reflectix?

Sounds like my idea of Reflectix/foam/Reflectix in the V-berth is a good idea.

I wouldn't disturb a hull/deck joint that isn't leaking. They are probably just stained from years of condensation.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Insulation: Reflectix or Sheet Styrofoam coreywoodworking Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 12 01-15-2011 01:20 PM
Alternative material merttan Gear & Maintenance 5 08-25-2008 08:53 PM
Windex alternative..Help kaniksu Gear & Maintenance 6 11-12-2007 02:14 PM
Sandblasting alternative? lee_1999 Gear & Maintenance 6 05-03-2002 05:48 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:04 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.