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  #31  
Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Quote:
From this forum: “We are going to offer a new promotion 25% off any anchor you buy for the next month only for SAILNET members.”

Quote:
The first Deal we posted was "get the next size up for the price of this one"

After it expired we offered 25% off for one month only. We gave this offer to the Cruisers Forum as well. We were trying to get movement in the forums because its one of the few venues available to us for advertisement-Mantus Anchors
Can you explain the inconsistancy in these two statements?


The following are questions about the company itself. Can you answer them?

Where are the anchors made?
Why is the address a PO Box as opposed to where the anchors are made?
In order to speak with the company we have to do it through a website?
What corporate name is your business registered under?
Are you listed by the Better Business Bureau?


From your website:

WHY THE MANTUS?

Quote:
DIGS LIKE NO OTHER The Mantus Anchor is designed to penetrate dense grassy bottoms and set with unparalleled holding power. When tested, our anchors set faster and deeper than any other tested anchor, including Rocna, Manson Supreme, Bulwagga, Fortress, Bruce, CQR and Danforth anchors.
Can you please provide the information and the empiracal data for this claim. Who tested it? What were the conditions?
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Last edited by chef2sail; 09-17-2012 at 03:27 AM.
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  #32  
Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors View Post
...Red Sky is an engineer at NASA, its actually a "SHE" who does consulting for Mantus and I disclosed it on Sailnet. See My posts about the bolts...
Isn't Red.sky required to disclose her status as a commercial poster since she is receiving money from Mantus and creating commercial posts for them?
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  #33  
Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Chef2Sail,

Not sure what your burr in the saddle is, but to me, you seem a bit harsh towards Mantus.

Personally, I'm glad that Mantus has posted on this website, and that he saw fit to give Sailnetters (and Cruisers forum) a discount. He is trying to build a business and get his product out there. The situation is not at all unlike Rocna....lots of people beat up on the representative of that company in the way that he promoted his anchors....but there are now many more who swear by Rocna anchors. And then there's Manson Supreme, for which many people described as a knock off of Rocna and which rode Rocna's coat tail. But now there are lots of people who swear by Manson also. So along comes Mantus with a new claim (sets quicker) and a different construction for new generation spade types (bolted together). The company has run it's own tests like all the other companies and presents that data on its website. Have you gone to the website? It's evolving, not unusual for a new company. Want to contact them by other than website, call their phone number....it's listed. How many other companies out there selling marine components (don't limit to just anchors) are making claims, showing their data, and putting up slick advertisements for their products? Everyone one of them. Do you question each one of them?

I bought one of the anchors at the discount as a spare. Probably didn't need it, but in the back of my mind for a long time, I've felt (and seen data/calculations) that suggest that I might not hold in a named storm with my original set up. Along comes Mantus with it's bolted construction, and I said that would do the job in combination with my other anchors, and can be disassembled for storage in cockpit locker. I bought one. Mantus delivered exactly what they said they would and quickly. I don't know where they are made, nor exactly where their office is, nor what grade of steel or its origin is. If China, so what. Tell me how many things made today don't have some components from China or other off shore location.

As to the performance, I don't know. The anchor looks good, but I have not tried it. May not for a long time. But several long time posters on this site have used it and posted their initial impressions on the website. So far they have been positive and tend to support the manufacturer's claims.

As to the discount. Most of us have limited money to put into this hobby. Had it not been the discount, I would not have bought the anchor. I had looked at Fortress earlier for the same reasons as I did with Mantus....they disassemble for storage. But always the price placed it out of the range that I felt that I could spend on this item. Would you have rather that Mantus not offer a discount to Sailnetters? And so what if he offers it to others to move his product. When you buy a car and the dealer gives you a discount, don't you think he does the same with others?

Not trying to pick a fight, but you seem too hard on this guy. As to him misrepresenting himself, I don't see it. Even with his engineer posting. Lastly, but not least, look at the product and make up your own mind. If it looks good and you want it buy it, do it. Otherwise, don't and ignore all the reports about it.

p.s. In my email discussions with Mantus, he answered my questions promptly and he indicated that he would like it if I would post my impressions good or bad. I've done that....good or bad. And I don't see anything wrong with the product, but if there is something wrong or misrepresented, it's going to be posted all over these websites by posters/users who are more loyal to other posters than to any manufacturer. And being a new company, a series of bad reports would likely lead to product being more or less black listed within the sailing community.

Last edited by NCC320; 09-17-2012 at 09:50 AM.
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  #34  
Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I know this will open a whole Pandorras Box, but I am sure I am not the only person with this observation/ question. Maybe this should be a seperate thread

I am bringing particular attention to this because of the recent spade of Mantus posts which appear to be just advertisement for the sale of their product.. They may have a good product, not sure. Their literature is not unlike the liturature presented by the other two major " new anchors" over the last few years.

Is it really appropriate for sponsoring members of Sailnet to reply to threads in a blatent advertisement of their products. Is this what we have come to? So now the advice of normal everyday sailors gets thrown in with people with special interests in making money off of the rest of us. Where are we drawing the line here? Are we saying pay enough money to sponsor Sailnet and we you will be allowed to advertise you product and shill for it in the various posted threads. Dont pay the money to Sailnet and if you use the forums to promote your product then you will be censored. Is this the direction we are going?

Understand that there is no independent testing of these products or the business practices of these companies.

I am asking the moderators to define when it is appropriate for a business, individual . company to promote their own financial self interests on here. Is it enough to make a statement that they have interest in the company? Is it defined by paying homage to Sailnet financially, is that what gets you in and makes it appropriate. Can you promote a book that you have written that you will benefit from financially? Can you promote a particular brand? Can you promote a particular repair shop, canvas maker, engine brand, line clutch, sails or sail loft? Can you promote a marina, surveyor, production line of sailboat? Will people who have had problems with the particular company be allowed to post on here against the company without fear of censorship, or does the advertising dollar the company pays to Sailnet give them immunity from people making negative comments about their products.? Will the readers of threads with negative comments about Sailnet advertisors be muzzled? Some of us still remember the Tartan debacle. This now goes to much more, now the threat of a lawsuit. This goes to credability.

It is one thing when people have used the products and make an INDEPENDENT evaluation and recommendations like Mainesail has with the anchors and various other products. He doesnt make money on them. It is another when the posters posts are being answered by the manufacturers in and effor to blatently make money. This is a dangerous direction to go. Credibility can/ will eventually be determined on here by " paid advertisements and threads. Eventually that will lead to no credibility except to the highest bidder.

This is a slippery slope allowing companies to post with our comments when their posts are nothing but blatent advertisements of their product. This has nothing to do with them answering a technical question ( which could be done in a PM)or particular issue.

I have found the continued posting of the Mantus company in almost all threads concerning anchors to be disconcerting and an obvious attempt of their company to promote their brand. Again they may have the best product since the invention of the light bulb.

Dave
Well, disclosure for everyone in case you didn't already know it. I do not work for Sailnet. All moderators are unpaid and uncompensated. Well, not true... I did get a free burgee once. I just want to make my disclosure so everyone understands there are no hidden agendas.

First, regarding Mantus: Thank you. Thank you for coming to our site and actually supporting it financially. In addition, thank you for taking the time to post in threads to help others out. I welcome your participation here.

Regarding the rules:

In general, if you are a paying advertiser, you can discuss your products here and put links, etc in your signtature. All we ask is that they openly disclose their affiliation (which Mantus has done). I believe most of us as sailors can make an educated opinion with where to spend our dollar from there.

As far as others in the trade participating here - we do not stop it. In fact, we encourage it. However, they cannot promote their wares. They cannot have links. This includes all commercial interests - even those non-sailing related. This often includes web sites where their signature links back to a site that sells things. We do our best to be fair with this as many blogs may have something for sale. We typically make that decision on one by one basis. Again, all we ask is that those involved in the marine industry post their affiliation so that anyone reading their comments can judge for themselves whether it is biased. Some do quite well with this system (ie, Bob Perry who is awesome). Others do their best to skirt the rules and often find themselves out of here (banned). I personally have never understood why some who are heavily involved in the marine industry and can really benefit out of SN don't take out an ad and instead try to skirt our rules. THe ads aren't that expensive... but I digress.

As far as what information is released - I am not sure that anything is. What information does Sailnet have about any of us? They certainly aren't giving out credit card numbers. As far as what we like, well, this is a sailing site. As far as location, google already does that and pulls your recent google searches and pastes them as advertisement. That isn't a Sailnet thing, incidentally.

Regarding the poster who did not put her affiliation in her signature, I will see what I can do about that. THat has to be done. I suspect that is an oversight on her part.

Regarding a company making claims about their product being the best ever or whatever, well, that has been going on since the cave men learned to talk and sell something. I think all of us have learned to take any company's or person's claims with a grain of salt. When Practical Sailor does its independent review, well, I will put a lot more weight into that. Until then, I will make my best educated decision, as I am sure we all do.

Regarding others coming on here to criticize a company or their product, well, that is a difficult one. We try to be fair about it. If you are simply laying out the events that happened and it is reasonable, we often let it run. If it is a, "Raymarine Sucks" kind of thread, well, we'll probably just pull it. Unfortunately and fortunately, Sailnet the forum is connected to Sailnet the store. As such, some companies like to throw out the threat of a lawsuit if anything negatively is said about them (true or not). The lawsuit is tossed at the store, not the person who made the claims. THis is because they perceive the store with the money... though the store may not even be aware of the post. The cost to fight the lawsuit is extraordinary (tens of thousands) while the benefit is almost nothing. That is why Sailnet often closes down threads disparaging companies. DOn't blame Sailnet... blame our legal system and lawyers who manipulate the system.

Hope that clears everything up.

Brian
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  #35  
Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Quote:
Not sure what your burr in the saddle is, but to me, you seem a bit harsh towards Mantus.-NCC320
I have no burr in my saddle about this company, in fact am looking to perhaps purchase it also. If asking legitimate questions makes it seem that I am being harsh, and finding a misrepresentation in their advertising does also, I dont know how to address that other than it is what it is. I have never taken things on face value by themselves and feel my questions are appropriate in light of what they have written and advertised. They wouldnt be the first comapny to seperate people from their money with slick advertising and corpoarate sponsors.

I have 3 anchors, Primary being a NZ ROCNA and we all know how their story played out on here. I dare say it probably started with a few people like me who asked questions concerning their validity and test results. I beleive the same questions should be applied to this company. Dont extrapolate or read into my reasonable questions or requests for information to mean I have any agenda here, because I dont.

I am glad you are satisfied with your service from them SO FAR. Course you havent really used the anchor yet, but you glowing recommendation of them is a positive sign. Usually before I purchase something I check into the Realiabilty and stability of the company ( note my questions about the lack of listing with the BBB, the physical address for the company, and the inability to find them as a US listed corporation anywhere) Like you I dont have extra money to throw away on products or to companies who dont or cant honor warrenties, present inflated marketing claims without substantiation, and havent been tested independently. Having followed Mainsails posts over the years I do trust his judgement on a products, and am following closely his results with this anchor. he did one of the best independent tests on anchors I have ever seen. What intrigues me about this anchor is its ability to be dissassemled. My ROCNA is my primary and I have been estatic about its overall results since I purchased it (I would feel the same about a Manson, but the ROCNA from NZ I bought was on the market before they were). The shape and design of the new generation anchors I beleive is what makes them such an overall good anchor (bottom conditions do differ obn whats best specifcally of course) i. To be able to carry one dissassemled as a spare would give me extra piece of mind. Their ability to reset quickly I have seen demonstrated personally with mine.

It is obvious that your threshold for checking into a company isnt the same as mine, so please bear with me as I try and get my realistic questions arising from Mantus's own self serving postings by paid company members and encouraged subscribers answered.

There have been a few questions that I have and I hope that Mantus answers them as quickly as they respond to other posts so that I may move forward and purchase this anchor.
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  #36  
Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Usually before I purchase something I check into the Realiabilty and stability of the company ( note my questions about the lack of listing with the BBB, the physical address for the company, and the inability to find them as a US listed corporation anywhere) [/QUOTE] --Chef2Sail

New innovations and products often are by the new guy on the block...the small one who has limited resources (after all, it's a business and initially costs are high and sales revenue is limited at the start). And it takes time to build a successful reputation.

If one buys only from reliable/stable companies (which to me, implies a company that has been around for a long time), you tend to get warmed over product designs and preclude lots of innovative products. And reliability and stability of a company is often just an illusion anyway. Companies go under everyday, are bought and sold to new owners who may or may not honor warranties, and companies may drop product lines or product support on specific items at anytime. They also change manufacturing techniques and design.....smaill illustration: I recently bought an expandable boat hook. I had several from a well known supplier of these items and went out of my way to try to get the same boat hook that I had previously. Paid extra to get it. Description and pictures were same as the earlier model, which was very reliable and good. What I got for all my trouble was a piece of junk....not at all similar to the earlier models.

Like you, I try to buy products that are good and last, but there is always a risk regardless of who you buy from.
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Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Brian,

Thank you for answering my question concerning our information and if it is shared with manufacturers or other entities.


Quote:
First, regarding Mantus: Thank you. Thank you for coming to our site and actually supporting it financially. In addition, thank you for taking the time to post in threads to help others out. I welcome your participation here. Crusingdad
I agree with this and would add, Thank you for helping yourself out financially (After all this is not charity work you are doing for us sailors)

Comparing this to Bob Perry posts where there is no financial sponsorship or gain is a joke. I also dont ever remember finding or anyone finding inconsistancies in Bob Perrys posts.

Quote:
Regarding others coming on here to criticize a company or their product, well, that is a difficult one. We try to be fair about it. If you are simply laying out the events that happened and it is reasonable, we often let it run. If it is a, "Raymarine Sucks" kind of thread, well, we'll probably just pull it-Crusingdad
If this is refering to my questions, I am asking simple questions about this company not criticising it. I would hope that normal questions which can be found in many threads similar to this does not evoke censorship because it is one of the vendors who contribute financially to Sailnet.

Here are my questions again. These are simple questions, easily answered. I will try to explain my reasoning fore asking them as it appears not to be obvious to some replying to this

Where are the anchors made?
- Their was great criticism of one of the new generation anchors when they moved their production to China and changed the metal content. There was no censorship associated with that previous thread

Why is the address a PO Box as opposed to where the anchors are made?-If there was a potential refund requested or problem all we have is a phone number and a PO address. We all know about boilerplate operations which work with offices in suites with phones who disappear in the middle of the night leaving people holding the bag. Just recently we had this suituation with a sail making company in which an large thread was generated without censorhip on here

What corporate name is your business registered under? Are you listed by the Better Business Bureau? I can find no mention of you.
- Both of these questions relate to the legitamcy of the company and again protection for the potential consumer in purchasing. These are not out of line extrodianary questions, nor are they critical of the company

-What grade of steel do you use? Obvious question to compare with other new generation anchors ROCNA and Manson Supreme. I cant find these specs in the literature.


Lastly,
There have been inconsistancies in what Mantus posted and who is employed by them. It is their own posts which has caused some to question the companys statements. They said they were only giving a 25% discount to Sailnet members. This was not true whether intentional or not.
Quote:
From this forum: “We are going to offer a new promotion 25% off any anchor you buy for the next month only for SAILNET members.”-Mantus
Quote:
The first Deal we posted was "get the next size up for the price of this one"After it expired we offered 25% off for one month only. We gave this offer to the Cruisers Forum as well-Mantus
.

Not all of their posters have identified their contacts or position with the company which was pointed out by someone replying to this thread. This violates Sailnet policies whether intentional or not

I would like to purchase this anchor and am asking the questions. These questions may be what others may already ask or want to know also. I did not expect this thread to generate so much negativeity.

Mantus, can you answer my four simple questions ( so we can move on from this) and I can feel confident in purchasing your anchor!!!!!!!
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Last edited by chef2sail; 09-17-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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  #38  
Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors View Post
Red Sky is an engineer at NASA, its actually a "SHE" who does consulting for Mantus and I disclosed it on Sailnet. See My posts about the bolts.
I apologize Greg - I missed that. Unfortunately, in a way that just makes things look worse. You see that was six weeks after her post where she misrepresented herself and spoke of you in the third person. With several posts by both of you in the interim and only after she slipped up and posted a technical response. Just in case you forgot, here is here post:

"I met the Mantus guys at our local Spring Fling event here in TX (Gulf Coast). Looks like a solid product with lots of Galveston Bay testing plus testing in Isla Mujueres. They are sized for use in real cruising/anchorage situations - where not dragging is critical. If you are a day sailor you could size down. They were also hopeful they'd be chosen for independent testing - those results should definitely be interesting!
Kinda cool an American start-up has taken on the New Zealand duo :-) "

Nice attempt to deflect while ignoring our concerns. I'll leave the rest for now.

Anything you want come clean about?

edit: fixed typo

Last edited by Geoff54; 09-17-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Regarding the poster who did not put her affiliation in her signature, I will see what I can do about that. THat has to be done. I suspect that is an oversight on her part.
Sorry Brian - Not an oversight but deliberate attempt to mislead.
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Old 09-17-2012
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Re: spare anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Are you listed by the Better Business Bureau? I can find no mention of you.
Hey Chef
I agree with you on most of this stuff but not on this one. It costs to register with BBB, it's not cheap and in many cases, it's an unnecessary expense. I've owned two businesses and in neither case did I register. In my opinion, BBB exists to make money for BBB. BTW they will still record a complaint against a business even if the business is not registered - but one complaint in twenty years wasn't too bad, eh? Just to ensure nobody thinks that I am failing to disclose, neither business was marine related and I am now retired
Geoff
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