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  #41  
Old 09-26-2012
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
OK I think I got it.
http://www.ndttech.com/Papers/Crane%...%20methods.pdf

The first couple of paragraphs says the the most wear with wire rope in crane service is rolling over the pulleys caused damage to wire.

Usually, fatigue breaks develop in segments of the rope surface that come into direct contact with a sheave or drum.


If that is the case then bad strands will show up before any other damage is critical in a crane.
With a boat since the wire don't move it can fail first in places that can not be seen.
That is a great articles, going to take me some time to fully understand. But what about the "chokers" that are often used with a crane? These chokers do not see a rolling load (although they would see a compression load) and the chockers usally have a crimp conection that creates an eye (see my previous post). And I still don't understand why sailboats do not have a better redundancy- know as "belts and suspenders" in the structural design trade. For example just because you break one wire on your rig should not bring your whole rig down, but it will based on the normal design of a sail boat rig.

Just saw this int the article, very interesting (would this pertain to sailboat rigging?):

"Two different philosophies have been used to effect rope retirement:
1. A Statutory Life Policy mandates rope retirement at certain prescribed intervals. (This means, the Statutory Life Policy places a maximum on the time a rope can be in service).

2. Retirement for Cause is based on retirement conditions that are evaluated periodically by nondestructive inspections. (This means, the Retirement-for-Cause approach requires that the rope must be retired when the deterioration exceeds a certain limit.)
Because a Statutory Life Policy is inherently wasteful, regulators have tended to adopt the Retirement-for-Cause approach wherever appropriate."

Last edited by casey1999; 09-26-2012 at 02:25 PM.
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  #42  
Old 09-26-2012
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

What's so hard? The "He was right!" post said it all. I go about 10 years. $1K or less to protect a $55K or less boat makes good sense to me.

It's like saying: "I never have to change my oil, it's black all the time and at the right level."
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  #43  
Old 09-27-2012
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
What's so hard? The "He was right!" post said it all. I go about 10 years. $1K or less to protect a $55K or less boat makes good sense to me.
Don't quite follow your post. Do you change your rigging based on sound engineering judgement or a fear factor of the unknown?

For those that say change your rigging every (you choose), 7 or 10 or 15 or 20 or 35 years, do you also change the turnbuckels, pins, chainplates and mast fittings (tangs, bolts, spreaders, spreader mounts) at the same time? If not, why? If you cannot trust a rigging inspection, and you say you will change your rig every 10 years, why in year 9 day 364 is you rig ok, but at day 365 no longer any good?

We trust our lives to about a 1/4 thick piece of rubber for 80,000 miles (tires)with only doing a brief visual inspection, why cannot a rig inspection be trusted?

Just yesterday I picked up a p/u truck load of lifting gear that had just gone through an annual inspection (chain hoist, chokers rated to 9,000 lbs that have swaged eyes, slings, ect.). All that was done is a visual inspection. This equipment like your boat rigging, a failure could kill someone, yet only a visual is done. Also talked with the rigging inspector as to how a 100 ton mobile crane is tested, they do a 125% lift, but then perform only a visual inspection of the cable and fittings- no x-ray.
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Old 10-02-2012
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

It's far easier to determine the conditiion of galvanized rigging with a visual than with stainless. You can replace galv rigging ten times as often, for the price of replacing stainless.
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Old 10-02-2012
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
It's far easier to determine the conditiion of galvanized rigging with a visual than with stainless. You can replace galv rigging ten times as often, for the price of replacing stainless.
After reading the thread I am confused how riggers work in US. In Europe they recommend to check the rig after 7 years. Okay it may be a bit too much and I personally would make it at 10 years. But I don't mean a visual check, that should be made every year, I mean they take the rig down and pass on x rays every peace that is subject to considerable strain.

How can someone that calls himself a rigger look to a 35 old rig and after a visual inspection declare it sound? I am really confused

Regards

Paulo
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
After reading the thread I am confused how riggers work in US. In Europe they recommend to check the rig after 7 years. Okay it may be a bit too much and I personally would make it at 10 years. But I don't mean a visual check, that should be made every year, I mean they take the rig down and pass on x rays every peace that is subject to considerable strain.

How can someone that calls himself a rigger look to a 35 old rig and after a visual inspection declare it sound? I am really confused

Regards

Paulo
Thanks for your input. I am also confused. Riggers here never use x-ray (maybe on high tech race boats like Americas Cup and Volvo, but not your typical cruiser or racer).

What confuses me is that there is really no standard on rig inspection. Surprised more rigs do not fail.
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Old 10-02-2012
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Thanks for your input. I am also confused. Riggers here never use x-ray (maybe on high tech race boats like Americas Cup and Volvo, but not your typical cruiser or racer).

What confuses me is that there is really no standard on rig inspection. Surprised more rigs do not fail.
Yeah, that is my thought too! Particularly when it comes to coastal cruisers. You would think that if lots of rigs came down, and those failures could all be attributed to standing rigging of a certain age, then insurance companies would be all over it! As it is, I have never been asked how old my standing rigging is. The underwriters seem content with a general survey every few years.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

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Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
Yeah, that is my thought too! Particularly when it comes to coastal cruisers. You would think that if lots of rigs came down, and those failures could all be attributed to standing rigging of a certain age, then insurance companies would be all over it! As it is, I have never been asked how old my standing rigging is. The underwriters seem content with a general survey every few years.
And my insurance company, Progressive, doesn't even ask for that. I am all for inspecting and replacing rigging when required, but what is the real definition of "when required".

We can send a man to the moon (or at least we could at one time), but we cannot create a good standard for rig inspection/replacement.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Casey,

There is a good standard for when to replace standing rigging. The issue is that few if any boat owners are willing to follow the standard.

The industry standard is a full disassembly and x-ray inspection when the rigging reaches 7 years old, and continuing x-ray inspections every year after that. This is the recommendation from the manufacturers of the parts, any deviation on this is the owners responsibility. Frankly the cost of doing this is pretty silly, since a full inspection is often close to the same as a re-rig for a small boat. But it is the standard.

As has been mentioned above, there are a number of factors that effect the service life of rigging, and so what may be acceptable on one boat is going to cause a major problem on another.

For instance, temprature is one of the critical factors in if, and at what speed crevice corrosion occurs. 316 stainless for instance doesn't suffer from crevice corrosion if the temprature is below 60F, while 304's critical temprature is 30F. So as long as your boat is never exposed to tempratures above 30F no worries.

Salinity is another issue, the above tempratures are based on the standard assumption for the salinity of oceans, but your local area may be significantly higher or lower. If in a high salinity environment you may have a bigger issue.


But corrosion is one one of the issues. Stainless steel also suffers from work hardening, which means that as the parts are stressed over time it actually becomes stronger. The problem is that at the same time it also becomes much more brittle. So how many load cycles you have on the rigging can be as much an issue as corrosion. This is independent of age, which is why offshore race programs replace their rigging every circumnavigation, or one year, whichever is sooner.

Frankly at 10 years I would replace rigging regardless of condition if I was headed down island, or taking what had been a daysailor for some serious cruising. Figure a few thousand dollars as cheap insurance when contemplating a $50,000 mast and rigging. Not to mention the potential harm that could occur from a rigging coming down mid ocean.
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  #50  
Old 10-02-2012
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Casey,

There is a good standard for when to replace standing rigging. The issue is that few if any boat owners are willing to follow the standard.

The industry standard is a full disassembly and x-ray inspection when the rigging reaches 7 years old, and continuing x-ray inspections every year after that. This is the recommendation from the manufacturers of the parts, any deviation on this is the owners responsibility. Frankly the cost of doing this is pretty silly, since a full inspection is often close to the same as a re-rig for a small boat. But it is the standard.

As has been mentioned above, there are a number of factors that effect the service life of rigging, and so what may be acceptable on one boat is going to cause a major problem on another.

For instance, temprature is one of the critical factors in if, and at what speed crevice corrosion occurs. 316 stainless for instance doesn't suffer from crevice corrosion if the temprature is below 60F, while 304's critical temprature is 30F. So as long as your boat is never exposed to tempratures above 30F no worries.

Salinity is another issue, the above tempratures are based on the standard assumption for the salinity of oceans, but your local area may be significantly higher or lower. If in a high salinity environment you may have a bigger issue.


But corrosion is one one of the issues. Stainless steel also suffers from work hardening, which means that as the parts are stressed over time it actually becomes stronger. The problem is that at the same time it also becomes much more brittle. So how many load cycles you have on the rigging can be as much an issue as corrosion. This is independent of age, which is why offshore race programs replace their rigging every circumnavigation, or one year, whichever is sooner.

Frankly at 10 years I would replace rigging regardless of condition if I was headed down island, or taking what had been a daysailor for some serious cruising. Figure a few thousand dollars as cheap insurance when contemplating a $50,000 mast and rigging. Not to mention the potential harm that could occur from a rigging coming down mid ocean.
Could you post a link to this "Industry Standard"?

I have never heard of this before. None of the top manufacturers' literature that I have seen states anything about x-ray inspections (and this includes the top hardware and wire makers)
Regards

Last edited by casey1999; 10-02-2012 at 09:00 PM.
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