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  #51  
Old 10-03-2012
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Casey,

Take a look at http://www.navtec.net/assets/img/dat...ng-Service.pdf which is Navtec's service recomendations. They are more conservative in some ways (inspections starting at 6 years old), and less in others (they allow for dye testing instead of x-ray testing).
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

As a former professional rigger I have seen older wire with a higher quality than newer wire and I would not replace it. I would pull the rig for a complete disassembly and good visual inspection with a 10 power glass, something that is more important than replacing good wire with something that may not be as good quality wise. Every rig in my opinion should be pulled every 5-7 years for this level inspection with a lower end and aloft inspection done yearly.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Casey,

Take a look at http://www.navtec.net/assets/img/dat...ng-Service.pdf which is Navtec's service recomendations. They are more conservative in some ways (inspections starting at 6 years old), and less in others (they allow for dye testing instead of x-ray testing).
Ok, I am reading the Navtec site, it has some great information. However, as far as I can tell the dye (or x-ray, ulta sound etc.) testing they are refering to is for Rod Rigging only. Here is their quote:

"• Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) of Rod
- Navtec Recommends: Dye penetrate testing (liquid
penetration testing) by authorized professional
- Alternative methods: X-ray, ultrasound testing,
eddy current testing."

This test does not pertain to wire cable nor say swage fittings, tangs etc. Rod Rigging is a whole nother animal and requires different inspection techniques when compared to wire rigging most of us have.

Everthing I read in the Navtec literature seems to indicate you can just do a visual inspection and if your rig passes, you are good to go. Navtec does give some estimates of rig life expectancy, but they seem to indicate if a wire rig passes visual, you are good to go. No where do they say a wire rig should be replaced every x years. The exception to this is that Navtec recommends replacing your turnbuckels every 6 years not matter what (due to fact inspection of the threads is nearly impossible).

Last edited by casey1999; 10-03-2012 at 02:25 PM.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Could you post a link to this "Industry Standard"?

I have never heard of this before. None of the top manufacturers' literature that I have seen states anything about x-ray inspections (and this includes the top hardware and wire makers)
Regards
My information on the x rays every 7 years was given by a guy that works with Sparcraft (one of the biggest world manufactures) so even if I cannot find it on the net I have no reason to doubt that it is their standard. But here you can look at the one of a smaller company Southern Spars and that's about the same:

Full service - at five yearly intervals

-...

- Proof test comparison against initial test figures of select rigging pieces.

- Non-destructive testing (dye penetrant or x-ray) of hangers, ball-head screws and turnbuckles.



http://www.southernspars.com/Rigging...S/Default.aspx

and Rig Pro recommends the same each 4 years:

"4 Year Service

..The associated fittings are thoroughly cleaned and recommended for non-destructive testing (NDT) to ensure there are no additional faults or weaknesses. "


http://www.rsb-rigging.com/spars.htm

This guy says the same:

"My personal recommendation is to have your rod or wire rigging (main and genoa roller furling gear also) fully disassembled, cleaned, serviced, lubricated and dye-penetrant test swages and/or rod heads once every 5 years, MINIMUM."

http://crowleysyachtyard.blogspot.pt...1_archive.html

So I think it is safe to say that the Industry Standard is 5 to 7 years for a NDT testing, I mean not a simple visual one (x-rays or dye penetrant). Here x rays is more common.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-03-2012 at 02:48 PM.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
My information on the x rays every 7 years was given by a guy that works with Sparcraft (one of the biggest world manufactures) so even if I cannot find it on the net I have no reason to doubt that it is their standard. But here you can look at the one of a smaller company Southern Spars and that's about the same:

Full service - at five yearly intervals

-...

- Proof test comparison against initial test figures of select rigging pieces.

- Non-destructive testing (dye penetrant or x-ray) of hangers, ball-head screws and turnbuckles.



Southern Spars: Servicing rigs

and Rig Pro recommends the same each 4 years:

"4 Year Service

..The associated fittings are thoroughly cleaned and recommended for non-destructive testing (NDT) to ensure there are no additional faults or weaknesses. "


RSB Rigging Solutions - Rig Pro - Spars

This guy says the same:

"My personal recommendation is to have your rod or wire rigging (main and genoa roller furling gear also) fully disassembled, cleaned, serviced, lubricated and dye-penetrant test swages and/or rod heads once every 5 years, MINIMUM."

The Crowley Advisor: April 2012

So I think it is safe to say that the Industry Standard is 5 to 7 years for a NDT testing, I mean not a simple visual one (x-rays or dye penetrant). Here x rays is more common.

Regards

Paulo
I think European standards are higher than US standards for boats (including rigging). I understand in Europe your boat needs a complete inspection (structural, electrical, hull, rig) in order to get the boat registered- correct me if this is wrong.

This from Southern Spar:


"Full service - at five yearly intervals

- Visual inspection of all cables and fittings for wear, chafe and corrosion.

- Check pre-tension loads.

- Disassemble rigging components for full clean, inspection and re-lubrication.

- Proof test comparison against initial test figures of select rigging pieces.

- Non-destructive testing (dye penetrant or x-ray) of hangers, ball-head screws and turnbuckles.

- If necessary, replacement of hangers, ball-head screws, turnbuckles and other components."

So what all this seems to indicate, if you do a complete rig inspection (including x-ray or dye) and all looks ok, then you rig is good to go and this is independent of age or miles under the keel. I would hope this is the way it is, and your rigging parts do not just fail for no reason. So if there have been failures (as others have mentioned and we know there are) of rigging gear, the reason is either the part was low quality or had a defect, the part was not inspected, or the inspection was not adequate.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbrake View Post
As a former professional rigger I have seen older wire with a higher quality than newer wire and I would not replace it. I would pull the rig for a complete disassembly and good visual inspection with a 10 power glass, something that is more important than replacing good wire with something that may not be as good quality wise. Every rig in my opinion should be pulled every 5-7 years for this level inspection with a lower end and aloft inspection done yearly.
I think this is a good point. Just because somthing is new does not mean it is better. I would bet 50% of the rigging hardware and wire on the market now is junk. When it comes time to replace my rig, most of my time will probably be spent finding and obtaining high quality fittings and wire.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
Yeah, that is my thought too! Particularly when it comes to coastal cruisers. You would think that if lots of rigs came down, and those failures could all be attributed to standing rigging of a certain age, then insurance companies would be all over it! As it is, I have never been asked how old my standing rigging is. The underwriters seem content with a general survey every few years.
The policies of the insurance company are based solely on income vs losses.
Many coastal cruisers sit at the dock for 345 days out of the year and go out only on perfect gentle 10 knot days the rest of the time or are motoring.
If a stay fails on a boat at the dock the mast will often say up since their is little stress on it.
It makes more sense for the insurance company to ignore the potential problem since it is only a problem if the boat is used.
It may be more of an issue for some sailnet members than for the insurance company due to usage.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
The policies of the insurance company are based solely on income vs losses.
Many coastal cruisers sit at the dock for 345 days out of the year and go out only on perfect gentle 10 knot days the rest of the time or are motoring.
If a stay fails on a boat at the dock the mast will often say up since their is little stress on it.
It makes more sense for the insurance company to ignore the potential problem since it is only a problem if the boat is used.
It may be more of an issue for some sailnet members than for the insurance company due to usage.
I would guess the insurance company could deny coverage if say your mast came down due to a corroded mast tang. Insurance companies do not cover loss due to normal wear and tear or general degredation. I would guess they would cover any liability- say your mast falls on someone or hits your dock neighbors boat on the way down. I have heard insurance may not cover your boat if it sinks due to a corroded seacock that has not been maintained, so I would presume the same for your mast.
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

some more interesting information:

Wire Cable: Un-stepping the rig is also the time to consider renewals and/or
replacements associated with rigging wire cycles. A rigging wire cycle is a
recommended replacement/renewal duty life cycle interval. Industry sources
consulted provided the following general guidelines for replacement/renewal
subject to regular detailed visual examinations, environmental conditions and
regular maintenance.

Change end fittings every 2nd cycle or 12 years;

Change wires every cycle or 6 years;
Change chain plates every 3rd cycle or 18 years.

* Source: Morrelli and Melvin, Gold Coast Yachts, SECO South (Navtec)

…While rod will generally last longer than wire, re-heading is usually recommended after disassembly or as specified by the manufacturer.


http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/USCG%...inspection.pdf

http://www.offsoundings.com/WEB%20PDF/SV_KIELE_V.pdf
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Re: 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
some more interesting information:

Wire Cable: Un-stepping the rig is also the time to consider renewals and/or
replacements associated with rigging wire cycles. A rigging wire cycle is a
recommended replacement/renewal duty life cycle interval. Industry sources
consulted provided the following general guidelines for replacement/renewal
subject to regular detailed visual examinations, environmental conditions and
regular maintenance.

Change end fittings every 2nd cycle or 12 years;

Change wires every cycle or 6 years;
Change chain plates every 3rd cycle or 18 years.

* Source: Morrelli and Melvin, Gold Coast Yachts, SECO South (Navtec)

…While rod will generally last longer than wire, re-heading is usually recommended after disassembly or as specified by the manufacturer.


http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/USCG%...inspection.pdf

http://www.offsoundings.com/WEB%20PDF/SV_KIELE_V.pdf
Paulo,
Thanks for the additional information. I remeber these demastings as I was living in Hawaii at the time. I had not seen the CG report on the Kiele, that is very interesting.
Regards
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