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35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok

16K views 74 replies 39 participants last post by  Capt.aaron 
#1 ·
The rigging on my 1977 tartan 34C is probably the original. At the very least the PO has not replaced it and he had the boat for 15 years, all the time in Long Island Sound.

I just had a professional rigger inspect the lower parts and he said it is fine and does not need replacement. That was even after I told him that I am planning to the the boat to the Bahamas in Nov (between Gulf Stream and coast as much as possible). He offered to go up and inspect there as well, remove spreader boots, etc. He has an established rigging shop and seem professional.

What do people think about this? I am tempted to believe and save the money for a full replacement, but it contradicts what I have read in many places (replace everything after 15+ years).
 
#39 ·
Well now I'm really confused. Why is their such a difference between crane and sailboat inspection.

Maybe it is shock loading that a boat gets that is particularly hard on the wire.

Maybe the number of swage fittings used are so low in crane use it has not become a statistical problem that has been dealt with.

Larry Pardee prefers hand spliced wire on a thimble for that very reason. It is easy to inspect and more flexible without any hard spots.
 
#40 ·
OK I think I got it.
http://www.ndttech.com/Papers/Crane wire rope damage and inspection methods.pdf

The first couple of paragraphs says the the most wear with wire rope in crane service is rolling over the pulleys caused damage to wire.

Usually, fatigue breaks develop in segments of the rope surface that come into direct contact with a sheave or drum.​

If that is the case then bad strands will show up before any other damage is critical in a crane.
With a boat since the wire don't move it can fail first in places that can not be seen.
 
#41 · (Edited)
That is a great articles, going to take me some time to fully understand. But what about the "chokers" that are often used with a crane? These chokers do not see a rolling load (although they would see a compression load) and the chockers usally have a crimp conection that creates an eye (see my previous post). And I still don't understand why sailboats do not have a better redundancy- know as "belts and suspenders" in the structural design trade. For example just because you break one wire on your rig should not bring your whole rig down, but it will based on the normal design of a sail boat rig.

Just saw this int the article, very interesting (would this pertain to sailboat rigging?):

"Two different philosophies have been used to effect rope retirement:
1. A Statutory Life Policy mandates rope retirement at certain prescribed intervals. (This means, the Statutory Life Policy places a maximum on the time a rope can be in service).

2. Retirement for Cause is based on retirement conditions that are evaluated periodically by nondestructive inspections. (This means, the Retirement-for-Cause approach requires that the rope must be retired when the deterioration exceeds a certain limit.)
Because a Statutory Life Policy is inherently wasteful, regulators have tended to adopt the Retirement-for-Cause approach wherever appropriate."
 
#42 ·
What's so hard? The "He was right!" post said it all. I go about 10 years. $1K or less to protect a $55K or less boat makes good sense to me.

It's like saying: "I never have to change my oil, it's black all the time and at the right level."
 
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#43 ·
What's so hard? The "He was right!" post said it all. I go about 10 years. $1K or less to protect a $55K or less boat makes good sense to me.
Don't quite follow your post. Do you change your rigging based on sound engineering judgement or a fear factor of the unknown?

For those that say change your rigging every (you choose), 7 or 10 or 15 or 20 or 35 years, do you also change the turnbuckels, pins, chainplates and mast fittings (tangs, bolts, spreaders, spreader mounts) at the same time? If not, why? If you cannot trust a rigging inspection, and you say you will change your rig every 10 years, why in year 9 day 364 is you rig ok, but at day 365 no longer any good?

We trust our lives to about a 1/4 thick piece of rubber for 80,000 miles (tires)with only doing a brief visual inspection, why cannot a rig inspection be trusted?

Just yesterday I picked up a p/u truck load of lifting gear that had just gone through an annual inspection (chain hoist, chokers rated to 9,000 lbs that have swaged eyes, slings, ect.). All that was done is a visual inspection. This equipment like your boat rigging, a failure could kill someone, yet only a visual is done. Also talked with the rigging inspector as to how a 100 ton mobile crane is tested, they do a 125% lift, but then perform only a visual inspection of the cable and fittings- no x-ray.
 
#45 ·
It's far easier to determine the conditiion of galvanized rigging with a visual than with stainless. You can replace galv rigging ten times as often, for the price of replacing stainless.
After reading the thread I am confused how riggers work in US. In Europe they recommend to check the rig after 7 years. Okay it may be a bit too much and I personally would make it at 10 years. But I don't mean a visual check, that should be made every year, I mean they take the rig down and pass on x rays every peace that is subject to considerable strain.

How can someone that calls himself a rigger look to a 35 old rig and after a visual inspection declare it sound? I am really confused :confused:

Regards

Paulo
 
#49 ·
Casey,

There is a good standard for when to replace standing rigging. The issue is that few if any boat owners are willing to follow the standard.

The industry standard is a full disassembly and x-ray inspection when the rigging reaches 7 years old, and continuing x-ray inspections every year after that. This is the recommendation from the manufacturers of the parts, any deviation on this is the owners responsibility. Frankly the cost of doing this is pretty silly, since a full inspection is often close to the same as a re-rig for a small boat. But it is the standard.

As has been mentioned above, there are a number of factors that effect the service life of rigging, and so what may be acceptable on one boat is going to cause a major problem on another.

For instance, temprature is one of the critical factors in if, and at what speed crevice corrosion occurs. 316 stainless for instance doesn't suffer from crevice corrosion if the temprature is below 60F, while 304's critical temprature is 30F. So as long as your boat is never exposed to tempratures above 30F no worries.

Salinity is another issue, the above tempratures are based on the standard assumption for the salinity of oceans, but your local area may be significantly higher or lower. If in a high salinity environment you may have a bigger issue.


But corrosion is one one of the issues. Stainless steel also suffers from work hardening, which means that as the parts are stressed over time it actually becomes stronger. The problem is that at the same time it also becomes much more brittle. So how many load cycles you have on the rigging can be as much an issue as corrosion. This is independent of age, which is why offshore race programs replace their rigging every circumnavigation, or one year, whichever is sooner.

Frankly at 10 years I would replace rigging regardless of condition if I was headed down island, or taking what had been a daysailor for some serious cruising. Figure a few thousand dollars as cheap insurance when contemplating a $50,000 mast and rigging. Not to mention the potential harm that could occur from a rigging coming down mid ocean.
 
#50 · (Edited)
Casey,

There is a good standard for when to replace standing rigging. The issue is that few if any boat owners are willing to follow the standard.

The industry standard is a full disassembly and x-ray inspection when the rigging reaches 7 years old, and continuing x-ray inspections every year after that. This is the recommendation from the manufacturers of the parts, any deviation on this is the owners responsibility. Frankly the cost of doing this is pretty silly, since a full inspection is often close to the same as a re-rig for a small boat. But it is the standard.

As has been mentioned above, there are a number of factors that effect the service life of rigging, and so what may be acceptable on one boat is going to cause a major problem on another.

For instance, temprature is one of the critical factors in if, and at what speed crevice corrosion occurs. 316 stainless for instance doesn't suffer from crevice corrosion if the temprature is below 60F, while 304's critical temprature is 30F. So as long as your boat is never exposed to tempratures above 30F no worries.

Salinity is another issue, the above tempratures are based on the standard assumption for the salinity of oceans, but your local area may be significantly higher or lower. If in a high salinity environment you may have a bigger issue.

But corrosion is one one of the issues. Stainless steel also suffers from work hardening, which means that as the parts are stressed over time it actually becomes stronger. The problem is that at the same time it also becomes much more brittle. So how many load cycles you have on the rigging can be as much an issue as corrosion. This is independent of age, which is why offshore race programs replace their rigging every circumnavigation, or one year, whichever is sooner.

Frankly at 10 years I would replace rigging regardless of condition if I was headed down island, or taking what had been a daysailor for some serious cruising. Figure a few thousand dollars as cheap insurance when contemplating a $50,000 mast and rigging. Not to mention the potential harm that could occur from a rigging coming down mid ocean.
Could you post a link to this "Industry Standard"?

I have never heard of this before. None of the top manufacturers' literature that I have seen states anything about x-ray inspections (and this includes the top hardware and wire makers)
Regards
 
#53 · (Edited)
Ok, I am reading the Navtec site, it has some great information. However, as far as I can tell the dye (or x-ray, ulta sound etc.) testing they are refering to is for Rod Rigging only. Here is their quote:

"• Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) of Rod
- Navtec Recommends: Dye penetrate testing (liquid
penetration testing) by authorized professional
- Alternative methods: X-ray, ultrasound testing,
eddy current testing."

This test does not pertain to wire cable nor say swage fittings, tangs etc. Rod Rigging is a whole nother animal and requires different inspection techniques when compared to wire rigging most of us have.

Everthing I read in the Navtec literature seems to indicate you can just do a visual inspection and if your rig passes, you are good to go. Navtec does give some estimates of rig life expectancy, but they seem to indicate if a wire rig passes visual, you are good to go. No where do they say a wire rig should be replaced every x years. The exception to this is that Navtec recommends replacing your turnbuckels every 6 years not matter what (due to fact inspection of the threads is nearly impossible).
 
#52 ·
As a former professional rigger I have seen older wire with a higher quality than newer wire and I would not replace it. I would pull the rig for a complete disassembly and good visual inspection with a 10 power glass, something that is more important than replacing good wire with something that may not be as good quality wise. Every rig in my opinion should be pulled every 5-7 years for this level inspection with a lower end and aloft inspection done yearly.
 
#56 ·
I think this is a good point. Just because somthing is new does not mean it is better. I would bet 50% of the rigging hardware and wire on the market now is junk. When it comes time to replace my rig, most of my time will probably be spent finding and obtaining high quality fittings and wire.
 
#59 ·
some more interesting information:

Wire Cable: Un-stepping the rig is also the time to consider renewals and/or
replacements associated with rigging wire cycles. A rigging wire cycle is a
recommended replacement/renewal duty life cycle interval. Industry sources
consulted provided the following general guidelines for replacement/renewal
subject to regular detailed visual examinations, environmental conditions and
regular maintenance.

Change end fittings every 2nd cycle or 12 years;
…
Change wires every cycle or 6 years;
Change chain plates every 3rd cycle or 18 years.

* Source: Morrelli and Melvin, Gold Coast Yachts, SECO South (Navtec)

…While rod will generally last longer than wire, re-heading is usually recommended after disassembly or as specified by the manufacturer.


http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/USCG rigging inspection.pdf

http://www.offsoundings.com/WEB PDF/SV_KIELE_V.pdf
 
#61 ·
I am the original poster of this thread. Thank you all for a very insightful analysis of the problem and so much advice. As usual with these things, there are no clear answers and it is up to the individual. If it was all as easy and straightforward as driving a car the oceans would be full of people (breaking their rigs) ;-)

In the end I succumbed to changing the entire standing rigging. The main reason was peace of mind, and it really helped in that regard when the nor'easter was blowing. I choose Norseman fittings and the rigger showed me how to fit them and gave me a few extra for the spares kit. I kept the old backstay (longest wire) as a replacement in case there is a failure at sea. I am feeling better prepared now.

In the end it got me from NY to the Bahamas and back to FL. Since I am planning more offshore cruising over the next years, I consider this a worthwhile investment. It was either new rigging or a chartplotter at the helm. I believe I got the priorities right. ;-)
 
#63 ·
Just a quick related note... This year I had what I'm 99% sure was original rigging on a 1968 sloop that was passed by my pre-purchase "surveyor". At my first launch, the yard would not step the mast and showed me the slight curves in some of the swages and tiny faults in some swage collars. My surveyor either didn't recognize its marginal condition or was just less-than-competent. So the lesson is that one opinion is only just that and prevailing wisdom that it get routinely changed-out is probably good advice.

On a second note for those considering making-up the new rigging themselves with Norseman or Sta-Lok terminals... it is E-Z as pie. I had never done it before and ruined my first attempt by over-tightening the dry-fit. But then I got the hang of it and made up all 8 new shrouds and stays in about 3 hours. I used all-new materials from the chainplates to the tangs & masthead and spent 30-40% what I would have paid for a rigger who would have used swages (most feel Norseman / Sta-Lok are better than swages).
 
#65 ·
once in a blue moon everything goes right in creating wire and rigging. The rigging lasts and lasts almost forever. it was perfect at the beginning. How long will it last. I don' know. Do you replace it? The replacement wont last as long. Will it fail? Get the best opinion you can and then make your decision. Nothing lasts forever, except nothing.
 
#66 ·
Seeing a lotta talk about age and corrosion. I skipped over some so if I'm repeating someone else, apologies. It seems the salient point should be this inescapable FACT. Metal fatigues. Rigging only one season old, but raced or worked hard, but still clean and shiny, is much older in terms of fatigue than a 10 year old rig that has spent life doing casual weekend cruises. There are averages. This is why there's a cut off after so many years for the typical cruiser. There's always some stress, even dockside. Sooner or later it's coming down. It's up to you as to when that is.
 
#67 ·
If the boat is 35 years old, or from 1968, whatever... the cost of replacing standing rigging would be a large percentage of the value of the boat.

Mine done in St Martin was $750 for forestay, 1,500 twin backs, $350 inners, $750 outters... total $4,500 plus yardage. Fine for me, I cruise oceans. But for a boat that does coastal cruising, day tripping its a lot. I wouldnt have it replaced.
 
#69 ·
What is a "professional riggier"? Does he/she have a degree?, How many years of experience? How many boats have they worked without a rig failure?, How many boats have they worked and have had a rig failure? What kind of "certification" or licenses do they have?

Is there such thing as a "professional rigger"?

I know of some riggers that should be considered professional like Brian Toss and John Koon, but many that consider themselves "professionals", are probably not.
 
#72 ·
Maybe they have a business license, I would be more interested in knowing if they were bonded and insured. If an insurance company will stand behind them against damages and injuries then I would say I would be prepared to trust them a lot more than someone without those qualifications.

Just me, but when a company will put a few million dollars behind a product or service it gives me a bit of confidence.
 
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#73 · (Edited)
I assume he meant a contractor's license or business license - meaning a legitimate business.

The underlying point here is someone who regularly engages in a particular trade or business has far more experience and expertise in a particular area, which would allow that person to offer a more valuable opinion on that subject than the know-it-alls on this forum, whose answer to every question is to buy more shizzle or spend more shizzle out of an overabundance of caution and ignorance.

Many of these older production boats had oversized masts and rigging, far stronger than the current crop of boat-show boats. If his professional rigger said it is o.k., then it is likely o.k. I would rely on the expert opinion of his rigger, who actually examined the rigging, over the non-expert opinion of the posters on Sailnet.
 
#74 · (Edited)
I agree with you for the most part.

I am a licensed professional mechanical engineer. I have licenses in Maryland and Hawaii, and would be able to get licensed in any state with an application. To get licensed I needed a mechanical engineering degree, 4 years experience working under a licensed mechanical engineer, and needed to pass two tests totaling 16 hours given by the state of maryland.

In my work I deal with all kinds of equipment from commercial air conditioning systems to maintenace of guyed anntennas over 1,000 feet tall.

Most of the trades people I deal with are not formally licensed, but could be considered professionals as they get paid to do what they do. Some should be considered experts. But the problem I see is these professionals are right 98% of the time. It is the 2% of the time they get it wrong because they do no have a good foundation for understanding what they are doing. One of my jobs is to "catch" this 2% and not let slip by. As in most of life, it would be uneconomical to educate these trades people to cover that 2% where they make incorrect descisions. It most cases, the 2% where they get it wrong is not a life or death situation, it only has economic impact.

However, I think your rig on your sailboat is critical. It could be life or death when it falls down and hits someone, or it could be life or death if you can not sail to make it to port. I think we need a formal licensing program to be considered a "Professional Rigger".
 
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