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  #51  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

The marina nearest to my home/pier does 1 hour hauls for 3 bucks a foot, including power wash.

Since I do NOT swim with fish this works for me.
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  #52  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Bleach. It's hard to know who to believe anymore, as most decide first, then look for evidence.

I have to admit, the Livestrong article seems low on scientific reference and quickly jumps to dioxins. While pointing out that bald eagles were nearly decimated by dioxins, being an article on bleach are we to believe that bleach killed the bald eagles? It also refers to bleach being a chemical weapon, but it did need to be combined with other chemicals, which was left out. Charcoal becomes gunpowder if you mix it with other chemicals. I'm still happy to have charcoal around.

If I were to guess, because its all we are usually left to do with environ issues anymore, bleach toxicity to the environment is most likely a function of concentration. Personally, I would never pour it straight into the water, but I can't say I know why.
The dioxin that was killing the eagles was the effluent of pulp mills - 10's of thousands of gallons being dumped regularly. Howe Sound, where I live is a long, deep fjord and was virtually devoid of life a number of years ago for this very reason. Once the dumping stopped the sea life returned in abundance in a short time.

Using a little bleach on a boat ain't quite the same thing - it DOES evaporate and break down in sunlight very quickly.

This is just another case of environmental absolutism IMHO.
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  #53  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Using a little bleach on a boat ain't quite the same thing - it DOES evaporate and break down in sunlight very quickly.
You are rationalizing. One boater pouring bleach into the water may not be a disaster, but what if every boater poured bleach into the water? As a sailor, your attitude should be to be part of the solution, not part of the problem, IMHO.

Water pH
Bleach is highly alkaline, with a pH of 12. Normal water pH is a neutral 6 to 8. Fish are extremely sensitive to changes in pH, so the pH level rise that comes from adding such an alkaline substance to the water can raise it to an unsustainable level. According to water experts Lenntech, high water pH chaps the skin of fish and a level of over 9.6 can cause death, inability to pass metabolic wastes and cause damage to gills and eyes. It can also harm juvenile fish development, as well as aquatic plants.

Toxicity
Chlorine bleach by itself is highly caustic and toxic to fish. It reacts with cell membranes and proteins, and then breaks them down. Since fish "breathe" water through their gills, the bleach enters their bodies and affects both their insides and outsides. In addition, it eats away the protective, slimy covering on the outside of most fish's bodies. This critical coat protects fish from disease and parasites. All of these internal and external actions of bleach eventually kill the fish. The material data sheets for chlorine bleach from manufacturers such as Corcraft and Sentry Industries warns against releasing its product into surface water due to its toxicity to aquatic life.

Organochlorines
Chlorine bleach breaks down and forms organochlorines in water. One particularly toxic organochlorine is dioxin. These compounds are toxic to all life, including aquatic life. The fish ingest these compounds and become contaminated, which then contaminates any creature that eats them. Organochlorines have been linked to cancer and developmental disorders, as well as neurological, immune system and reproductive issues.


Effects of Chlorine Bleach on Aquatic Life | eHow.com
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

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Originally Posted by Fstbttms View Post
All true and I'm not talking about everyone with a boat indiscriminately pouring bleach by the gallon into the water on a regular basis.

I'm suggesting a sense of proportion be applied instead of the absolutism being displayed here. Bottom paint is a lot more toxic than bleach yet the local marina, which is a hurricane hole with very minimal tidal washing, holds nearly 1000 boats and it is full of marine life - everything from schools of fish to swans to blue herons to seals & otters - they appear to be doing just fine.

Obviously we don't want everyone using Brent's tarp method as an alternative to normal bottom maintenance but the small amount of bleach introduced by the average boater is harmless to the environment.
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
........This is just another case of environmental absolutism IMHO.
A phenomenon which prevents substantially more progress and perhaps even enduring solutions. Ironically.
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  #56  
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fstbttms View Post
You are rationalizing. One boater pouring bleach into the water may not be a disaster, but what if every boater poured bleach into the water? As a sailor, your attitude should be to be part of the solution, not part of the problem, IMHO.

Water pH
Bleach is highly alkaline, with a pH of 12. Normal water pH is a neutral 6 to 8. Fish are extremely sensitive to changes in pH, so the pH level rise that comes from adding such an alkaline substance to the water can raise it to an unsustainable level. According to water experts Lenntech, high water pH chaps the skin of fish and a level of over 9.6 can cause death, inability to pass metabolic wastes and cause damage to gills and eyes. It can also harm juvenile fish development, as well as aquatic plants.

Toxicity
Chlorine bleach by itself is highly caustic and toxic to fish. It reacts with cell membranes and proteins, and then breaks them down. Since fish "breathe" water through their gills, the bleach enters their bodies and affects both their insides and outsides. In addition, it eats away the protective, slimy covering on the outside of most fish's bodies. This critical coat protects fish from disease and parasites. All of these internal and external actions of bleach eventually kill the fish. The material data sheets for chlorine bleach from manufacturers such as Corcraft and Sentry Industries warns against releasing its product into surface water due to its toxicity to aquatic life.

Organochlorines
Chlorine bleach breaks down and forms organochlorines in water. One particularly toxic organochlorine is dioxin. These compounds are toxic to all life, including aquatic life. The fish ingest these compounds and become contaminated, which then contaminates any creature that eats them. Organochlorines have been linked to cancer and developmental disorders, as well as neurological, immune system and reproductive issues.


Effects of Chlorine Bleach on Aquatic Life | eHow.com

If everyone wanted to cruise on your boat , live in your home at your street address,drive your car, sleep with your woman, it wouldn't work, so you shouldn't be allowed to do any of the above, because if everyone ( 7 billion people on the planet) did that, it wouldn't work.

Man that is the most feeble and often repeated, bogus argument I've ever heard.

Your picture shows you to be a diver. What becomes of the extremely toxic ablative antifouling you scrub off? Doesn't count, because you did it by the rule book?
Ya sure!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-13-2012 at 08:31 PM.
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  #57  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
If everyone wanted to cruise on your boat , live in your home at your street address,drive your car, sleep with your woman, it wouldn't work, so you shouldn't be allowed to do any of the above, because if everyone ( 7 billion people on the planet) did that, it wouldn't work.

Man that is the most feeble and often repeated, bogus argument I've ever heard.
So, using your fallacious logic, dumping your used motor oil down the storm drain is OK, because not everybody who owns a car is going to do the same thing. That pretty much sum up your arguement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Your picture shows you to be a diver. What becomes of the extremely toxic ablative antifouling you scrub off? Doesn't count, because you did it by the rule book?
Look, we live in a technological society. We are going to cause some pollution no matter what, that's just the name of the game. Yes, metal-based anti fouling paints pollute. But you have to weigh the pollution caused by anti fouling paints against the increased air and water pollution caused by boats being used with foul bottoms because they don't have an effective anti fouling coating on them. Not to mention the increased fuel consumption those boats would experience. But to intentionally add to the the damage recreational boating already does to the environment by pouring chlorine bleach into the water, simply because it is convenient to do so? That is the choice of a douchebag, my friend. Even if one person doing it doesn't mean the world is going to end, it's still not the right thing to do.
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

Environmentalists have banned hull cleaning divers in my harbor. They don't buy the rationalization.
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  #59  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: Cleaning Hull in the water

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Environmentalists have banned hull cleaning divers in my harbor. They don't buy the rationalization.
If they really wanted to effect change, they'd ban the use of copper-based anti fouling paints in your harbor. In-water hull cleaning actually contributes very little metal to the water column.

Last edited by Fstbttms; 11-14-2012 at 08:28 AM.
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In the same way that a small amount of cleaner contributes little to the water?

The comparison between industrial dumping, and a small amount of cleaner on a boat is the same. 10, 000 gallons of toxins from industrial usage is not the same. The analogy about everyone doing it applies just as well to the cleaning and small amount of copper released, except that the copper stays around longer.

Moderation and reasonable precautions are a much better solution than absolute bans based on lack of understanding of differences in scale.


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