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  #11  
Old 11-03-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

HighFly, if you're working on the boat in PA vs. Fl PM me and I'll hook you up with a couple of local lumber suppliers. One specializes in mahogany and ipe, the other in teak. Both sell at wholesale prices and expect you know what you're buying walking in. These are NOT home centers, just good old lumber yards.

On woods:
Ipe is extremely hard and can be prone to cracking and end checking. Take light passes with routers, pre-drill all screw holes slightly oversize so the screw bites on the fiberglass only and don't overtighten fasteners. Use sharp tools, bits and blades. Wipe ipe with acetone before applying glue or finish as you would with teak. Make sure to get plenty of finish on exposed end grain to prevent end checking. You may have trouble getting ipe to follow the curve of the toe rail.

White oak is a good outdoor wood but it has more movement with changes in temperature and humidity than teak, mahogany or ipe. That means a varnish finish won't hold up very well and because it has a pronounced open grain it won't look as good.

Mahogany isn't as hard as teak but it's MUCH less expensive, is very easy to work with and finishes beautifully. You have to watch what you're buying though. For exterior woodwork on a boat you want true South American mahogany. African mahogany (khaya) will have more movement and won't retain a finish as well.
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  #12  
Old 11-03-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

Are you sure that you need to replace your Toe Rail? While Denise and Frogwatch are mostly right (“Epoxy will peel off in short order” / “epoxy can't hold up to sunlight” / “not recc'd for use with epoxy, it won't stick”), most weathered teak can be reclaimed with epoxy if you do it the right way. I was told about this some years ago, tried it and it worked for me. You can always try it on a small section to see – you’ll know if you are happy with it after the epoxy stage before applying the varnish. The key (in more ways than one) is the first coat of epoxy. I’ve used System Three products but there is no reason why this won’t work with other brands.

It’s best to remove the piece so you can coat all surfaces. I know this is a PITA with a toe rail so, if you try this, you will have to decide if it’s worth the extra effort.

Strip off the old varnish (a chemical stripper works well).

Sand off any remaining varnish and sand back until you are happy with the natural color. Finish with about 180 to provide a key. After the worst of the weathered surface has been sanded, save the saw dust from the remaining sanding.

Only if really needed, use a teak brightener (my opinion – others disagree).

Wipe down with acetone to remove natural oil. Apply a coat of clear, thin epoxy working it well into any cracks. I’ve used System Three Clear Coat which is nice and thin - you might have to thin other clear epoxies but it needs to be thin to soak into the teak. This works best if the wood is warm (sunny day or a heat gun or ??) – I was told not to do it in direct sun as the increasing temp can cause air bubbles but I haven’t had a problem and the warm teak seems to really suck in the thin epoxy.

Mix the saw dust with some epoxy and use to fill cracks. Make some more sawdust from a piece of scrap teak if needed. Lightly sand until smooth.

Apply two more coats of epoxy to seal against moisture (no need to sand between coats).

Apply three or more coats of two part polyurethane varnish for the final finish and to provide UV protection. I’ve used System 3 varnish because I know it is compatible with their epoxy but it is important to use polyurethane varnish because the alkyds in some other varnishes react with epoxy and the varnish doesn’t harden. If you aren’t sure, test on a piece of scrap wood.

Of course, a nice new teak cap will look even better but it is surprising how good an old piece of wood can look and it's a lot less than $2k.

As always, this is my opinion/experience, it’s worth what you paid for it.
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  #13  
Old 11-03-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

Spot on Jim, thanks for making my post more complete.

Avery, you're going to have to do a little research on what is available in your comfort zone for a day trip.

I built an entire 40x14 foot back deck out of mahogany, simply went to 84 lumber and bought it in 20 foot planks (5.5 inches wide, 1.5 inches thick at 1.94 per foot). I left it unfinished but scrubbed it yearly, it was still nice and golden brown after 5 years when I sold the house.
I used the same stuff, milled it down and used it for handrails on my front stairs and porch, with 5 coats of varnish it looked beautiful.

All of it was less than 1800 bucks, so your 2k is a bit high.

Now, if you want to see some teak, here's the 'hip' on my boat:



You can find it out there.

For Ipe, use only carbide tipped tools

Joining planks for a toe rail should be done using a 8:1 scarf at the joint, and if you want to get decorative put a standard dutchman centered on the join line.
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  #14  
Old 11-03-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

The Last 4 Posts are Spot On and the other ones as well (good info.) !

Yes, the $ 2K is on the high side, was for $$ finished Teak and the 1st prices I found. i have been looking else where and have the price down to $ 1.2 K and the correct size. I have found 3 other teak suppliers, expect quotes back from them on Monday. Also, (now) I have 2nd & 3rd choices and not as expensive.

I will check out a portion of the toe rail as Geoff54 suggested, your thread gave me great info. (choice's) and put me on the right track (thank you). I did not have enough background to properly evaluate the toe rail but getting closer now. A couple days ago, I lightly probed it with a screw driver. The teak felt soft and showed a seperated grain. I thought the mean old Sun (UV's) had done a job on the wood over it's 42 years of life. I thought that 42 years would be about the expected life cycle of this wood, looks over the hill to me.

I will take some close up picture's tomorrow. My camera can really show the grain structure in double micro. mode... so You All Will See what I see with an experienced eye (I don't have this eye). I will probe it a little deeper and see how decomposed it is below the surface.

Thanks (All) for Steering me in the Right Direction.

Avery

Last edited by HighFly_27; 11-03-2012 at 09:21 PM. Reason: forgot info.
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  #15  
Old 11-04-2012
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Re: Toe Rail ReChecked Today, Looks Better I Thought !

Geoff54 and Everyone,

I think the Toe Rail will get a Pass. I went out and scrapped it with a screw driver and came up with decent looking wood .. just under the surface. I pulled & pushed on it to see what the strength was like, it felt fairly stiff (not weak). So, going full circle, per suggestion, the toe rail gets refinished. I think that it was recommended that the Toe Rail (T. R.) be removed and be completely redone. When I 1st looked at the T. R. I assumed that it was over the hill and due replacement, being it was a 42 YO T. Rail.

Today, I noticed that 1/2 of (on both sides) the Toe Rail Top Plate S.S. Strip is Missing. I see the hole imprint marks on the top of the teak toe rail, so it was there at one time. I'm wondering how common the -- S. S. Top Rail Strip is to find & replace it.

I took some pictures of the cabin top area and will be sending pictures of the chalky & cracking paint. I will send the pictures in the next thread & ask for recommendations.

Avery
Attached Thumbnails
Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-002.jpg   Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-009.jpg   Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-003.jpg   Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-008.jpg   Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-012.jpg  


Last edited by HighFly_27; 11-04-2012 at 02:17 PM.
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  #16  
Old 11-04-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

I took some pictures of the Cabin Top, it's paint is cracked and chalky.

I read the article about Refinishing at SNet., and have a general undertanding of what to do. Now, what would you do with the paint from the pictures you see. pictures. I've never did a lot of painting, other than painting my house and painting flat bed trailers I've built & touch up on Hvy. Equip. .

I see the Non (light blue) Skid Areas, are these (non slid) fairly easy to apply. I'd like to hear what's the best course of action. I will not do a thing until the major items are completed -- Rudder, 4 X 4 Hole, 2 Areas that have rotted wood below deck, and other listed items.

Avery
Attached Thumbnails
Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-010.jpg   Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-011.jpg   Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-005.jpg   Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-009.jpg   Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?-i-37-nov.-04-2012-013.jpg  

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  #17  
Old 11-04-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

Avery,

Your enthusiasm is heartening -- really! It's great to see someone with the juice flowing, envisioning the day when everything is just right.

That said, slow down and take a breath or three.

Don't get me wrong -- most of us have been there. The voice of reason (and experience) tells me that the only way to eat the elephant is one bite at a time.

The best advice I can give you is to begin to prioritize your punch list, and then tackle all the top priority things first. After those are done then start moving down the list.

A1 priority would be those things that keep the boat afloat. (Fixing holes; inspect/service seacocks; inspect/repair/replace bilge pump(s); inspect/service shaft seal; etc)

A2 would be all other safety systems. (Inspect/install smoke and CO detectors; Inspect all boat wiring; test your VHF; etc.)

A3 would be propulsion (Inventory/inspect/repair all sails; inspect/repair/replace standing rigging; check out your aux as well -- unless you know for a fact the fluids were replaced recently and regularly, change your oil, coolant, and tranny fluid; etc.)

B priorities would be stuff like electronics.

C priorities would be the cosmetic stuff.

D priorities... Don't worry about them -- new A, B, and C priorities will always pop up to keep the D priorities from ever getting anywhere near the top of the list.

Hope you take this in the constructive manner it is intended.

Best,
PF
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  #18  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

Profin,

I'm with you and have set my A, B, C, List and similar to your's with pricing (high/ low) spread sheet.

In my other posts, I have a order of merit:

A: Repair/ Replace Rudder; repair 4 X 4 in. hole in stern; repair (2) structure (rotted) areas; clean & inspect the entire boat (carefully).

Note: All the thru hull fiiting were just done 1 yr. ago, engine & drive overhaul & shaft packing completed a yr. ago. Engine & Trans. just had a complete service, dip stick has brand new oil showing on it.

B. Complete check out of all equipment: A/C, Cold Box, Bilge Pump, Bowers, Fuel & Water Tanks, All Elect., Complete Check Out. The DC Panel needs to go, most switches are soft and wiring ends. Need to check out the smoke alarms & fire bottles, to include auto bilge pump. Check all the gages & instruments, knot meter is broke, etc. . The steering cables are soft to the cabin wheel, need replaced or tighten (?) .

C. Sails & Rigging, I have one old back stay cable to change, has two big old insulator connections where a high freq. ant. was mounted on the mast.

D. I have 2 or 3 anchors to buy, they were taken by the former owner for his other boat. I have one stanchion that is bent and may need replaced (if not repairable). I will find some other things, but not (hopefully) major items and they will be added on to the list. Toe Rail needs redone, all the winches should be checked & serviced.

D.a. I will need to do the bottom about 2 weeks prior to putting it in the water. I've been asking questions about the top side, it has cracked & chalky paint. I'd like to have an idea about what I'd be getting into (time & $$), it's still on the D.a. list.

E. The cabin needs some cushions made up (missing) and a couple widows may / or could be replaced. I need to buy a base & hand held radio (VHF). I was advised to wait until about 2 months before I go out. The prices (used) go down every month on electronics, the newer stuff comes out & people up grading. This is the right idea, I will have the boat (nearly) done and know exactly what my budget is $$$ ? I need to find a dinghy (used) and mounting fixture or tow (?) rig. I'd like to add a drop-in swim ladder to give me access from the water level.

Closing.. I do need to a take a step back & take a take deep breath. However, I don't think I'm overwhelmed, this is not my 1st big project. It's my 1st sailboat repair & not in my usual comfort zone and learning one day at a time.

My list is not a 100% yet, but I'm working on it; I'm doing all the important items 1st.

Thanks for the Help,

Avery

Last edited by HighFly_27; 11-05-2012 at 12:48 AM.
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  #19  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

Move getting the ladder up at the safety level.

As Porfin said, floats first, then safe. Then comfort, then pretty.

Review what safe is, it pretty much touches everything.
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Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

Avery

We are pretty much in line with our projects. I initially wanted to replace the toerail and my deck was cracked. I attacked the deck first - spent the summer fixing it. Don’t take it lightly – some of those cracks you’ll have to open up into a V groove and fill it with epoxy fairing compound, others which are small crazings you just sand. Lots of work but the result is astonishing. I removed all the craks, faired, sanded, faired, sanded, then painted and Kiwi-Grip.
As for the toerails – there is a Brazilian wood called Cumaru which is readily available in the US (and here in Canada), it is better than Ipe for this purpose, and a lot cheaper than teak - its also known as Brazilian teak. It is used mostly for backyard decks and it is stable and weathers well. Great for toerail. I will eventually be replacing mine and have located a dealer that has 2X2 in 12 feet lengths.
Check out these sites below from Pearson 35 owners- it’s a great site for getting to know projects for any boat. The second link is from the same site – a toerail done using Cumaru, but he did it with a ¾ by 2 inch stock size, even then it looks pretty nice IMO.

As it was said before have the project list by priorities, otherwise you’ll burn out in no time.
Good luck.

Owners Projects

New Toe Rail

Last edited by SVTatia; 11-05-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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