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Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?

13K views 40 replies 20 participants last post by  oysterman23 
#1 ·
I have evaluated my Toe Rail and it's fairly soft, (42 yr's. old) cracked and may not last me through my intended life of the boat for me (3 to 4 yr's.).

I measured the side toe rails @ 2 7/8" high, 2 1/2" at base, 2 1/4" at top (tapered). I need 36' feet for one side X's 2 = 72' feet total, bow toe rails a little different about 6' feet and curved stern rails = 4' feet.

I have received recommendations for: White Oak or Black Locust for internal structure members, that are sealed with epoxy to protect them.

I priced the Teak out and it will run about $ 1.5 K to $ 2.0 K bucks for all of it. I planed on re-using most of the S.S. hardware but will add $ 300.00 more for replacment hardware as needed.

My No# 1 Question, has anyone used White Oak (epoxy sealed) for Toe Rails

and what were your results ______________ ?


I can buy the Teak ($ 2K) but would rather use USA Wood ($ 300.00). I do not want to go through all this work and have So, So Results. I don't want the boat to look like a 2nd hand ... repair deal, and distract from the boats appearance & resale. I have all the necessary shop tooling to reproduce this (replacement) toe rail with 99% reproduction results.
 
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#2 ·
Oak belongs inside. Even if you paint it will look like a 2nd hand repair deal, because it will be. You need a tight grained, dark, weather resistant wood to not distract from appearance. You need teak to not lower resale.

Look up IPE, or even mahogany decking.

As I said in another thread, cheap, fast, good. Pick one.
 
#3 ·
Avery,Chuck, actually white oak weathers much like teak. It will turn silver grey and it will darken with oil and varnish. It's even been used for wooden dams by the settlers back in the day. Epoxy will peel off in short order though and epoxy can't hold up to sunlight. Granted, it won't look anything like teak or mahogany or teak.
 
#4 ·
ChucklesR,

You're Spot On .. so get out the $ 2 Grand.

I'm having a problem with finding Teak (finished) of the correct length. I see (3) splices on the side or the boat, so 10 to 12 ft. long X's (3) splice in points on the I-37. The correct size is -- 2 7/8" high, 2 1/2" at base, 2 1/4 at top X 10 to 12 ft. in length. I need (6) lengths = 60 to 72 ft., with the (2) bow short sections included in, 68 ft. should do it with no waste.

I see the correct size teak for sell but only in 8 ft. lengths (only). I did see marine lumber places that specialze in marine wood but closed today; and shipping by freight will be costly (price of life) for 10 or 12 ft. sections.

The Teak comes pre-finished, would you apply a 2nd or 3rd coat of Teak Finish.. or leave it

alone __________ ?
 
#5 ·
Highfly, are you sure you want to go to all the trouble for a boat you're going to keep for only 3 or 4 years? Can't you just epoxy, fair and paint the old toerail and just go sailing? I have seen from your other threads that you have your hands full with your boat and its repairs. It seems a shame to spend so much time fixing your boat for the short period you intend to keep her. I wonder if it's more prudent to unload this boat and get something in sailaway condition?...

If you do decide to go with wood toerails, I second Chuckles suggestion of Ipe. It is cheaper, excellent for deck stuff, lasts forever and is much more resistant than teak.
 
#7 ·
Well.. I See your Point.

I think that the current (42 YO) toe rails are a coin flip on making it for 3 years or so. I'd rather do it now and have it done. Really, the I37 is not a bad boat and fair + shape in it's present condition. The yard master had zero money to make with me, he said that this boat had a lot of money spent on it (eng. & trans., etc.) and was seaworthy. The rudder & 4 x 4 hole is not a big deal and well within my comfort zone ($$ & my fix).

The other items will add up i.e. electronics, 2 windows (fogged), A/C repair, cold box, 2 rotted areas, DC panel, control cables in cabin (not tight) and more. I see 10K + and we are sailing, if 5 K more.. then, I can handle it. Currently, I have $ 8,800.00 in the I-37 and it's not costing me slip rental.

My Son is 17 and has taken a interest in the boat. I was hoping he'd go this route and he's asking me a lot of questions (everyday). He's in the process of setting the I-37 as his 2nd man cave. He running the TV cable and power out to it. If he continue's his interest.. I will add him to the 3 day refresher sailing course with me in December.

I'm a down to earth guy and have figured everything out from A to Z. I could have bought a boat that was ready to go but it would have been about 20K or Up. I figure about 18 to 20 K in the I-37. The big ($20 K) s money for major items has been spent done by the former owner. I figure about 250 man hours of labor at 25 hours per week = 10 weeks work. I think I will be done with the boat at the end of March time frame.

The biggest reward for me.... getting my Son involved, he may fall in love with sailing. If he works on it and becomes personally involved, this will be good thing and smiles. If he takes a interest, then, I will not worried about selling the boat in 3 years or so. I'll give the I-37 to my Son. If he vest's enough time in the boat... he may/ will have some special memory's in his life (my smile's will be priceless). I'm not trying to sell my dreams to my Son... he may not take a long term interest but that's my logic.

I will fix the I-37 and it will be rewarding project for me. I may epoxy the toe rails but will not deal with them until the big items are fixed 1st. I may find some teak at a great price and smile even more .. with new toe rails.

Avery
 
#8 ·
Ipe, or Ironwood is extremely durable, which is why they use it for exterior decking. It is also as hard as iron and would be murder on any power tool blades.

Teak would be my first choice for this application but is expensive. I would not buy pre-finished teak which would just make expensive wood even more expensive. If you are having trouble finding appropriate sized teak stock then you have not checked out M. L. Condon in White Plains, NY. Pretty far from PA or FL but they have had a variety of different thickness stock in their yard. Pretty sure all their wood is surfaced on 3 sides, 1 side rough.

Mahogany would be my 2nd choice. When finished nicely it can look as nice as (sometimes even better than) teak. Mahogany is a bit cheaper than teak.
 
#9 ·
Highfly, you've got the right attitude! I'm happy to hear your 17-year-old son is involved. It'll be a great father-son project. My son just turned 18 and has been my boat companion (and labourer!) for the last 4 years. Just remember to get out sailing during the repairs. A day out sailing with your son will make it all worthwhile.

Caleb, while Ipe is HARD, it is very much suited to this application. Here in Brazil, where Ipe is a native wood, it is often used to replace old aluminium toerails. The stuff is TOUGH! The biggest problem working with Ipe is it can be hard to get a smooth finish (it likes to "chip"). Go slow with the power tools and it should be fine.
 
#11 ·
HighFly, if you're working on the boat in PA vs. Fl PM me and I'll hook you up with a couple of local lumber suppliers. One specializes in mahogany and ipe, the other in teak. Both sell at wholesale prices and expect you know what you're buying walking in. These are NOT home centers, just good old lumber yards.

On woods:
Ipe is extremely hard and can be prone to cracking and end checking. Take light passes with routers, pre-drill all screw holes slightly oversize so the screw bites on the fiberglass only and don't overtighten fasteners. Use sharp tools, bits and blades. Wipe ipe with acetone before applying glue or finish as you would with teak. Make sure to get plenty of finish on exposed end grain to prevent end checking. You may have trouble getting ipe to follow the curve of the toe rail.

White oak is a good outdoor wood but it has more movement with changes in temperature and humidity than teak, mahogany or ipe. That means a varnish finish won't hold up very well and because it has a pronounced open grain it won't look as good.

Mahogany isn't as hard as teak but it's MUCH less expensive, is very easy to work with and finishes beautifully. You have to watch what you're buying though. For exterior woodwork on a boat you want true South American mahogany. African mahogany (khaya) will have more movement and won't retain a finish as well.
 
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#12 ·
Are you sure that you need to replace your Toe Rail? While Denise and Frogwatch are mostly right ("Epoxy will peel off in short order" / "epoxy can't hold up to sunlight" / "not recc'd for use with epoxy, it won't stick"), most weathered teak can be reclaimed with epoxy if you do it the right way. I was told about this some years ago, tried it and it worked for me. You can always try it on a small section to see - you'll know if you are happy with it after the epoxy stage before applying the varnish. The key (in more ways than one) is the first coat of epoxy. I've used System Three products but there is no reason why this won't work with other brands.

It's best to remove the piece so you can coat all surfaces. I know this is a PITA with a toe rail so, if you try this, you will have to decide if it's worth the extra effort.

Strip off the old varnish (a chemical stripper works well).

Sand off any remaining varnish and sand back until you are happy with the natural color. Finish with about 180 to provide a key. After the worst of the weathered surface has been sanded, save the saw dust from the remaining sanding.

Only if really needed, use a teak brightener (my opinion - others disagree).

Wipe down with acetone to remove natural oil. Apply a coat of clear, thin epoxy working it well into any cracks. I've used System Three Clear Coat which is nice and thin - you might have to thin other clear epoxies but it needs to be thin to soak into the teak. This works best if the wood is warm (sunny day or a heat gun or ??) - I was told not to do it in direct sun as the increasing temp can cause air bubbles but I haven't had a problem and the warm teak seems to really suck in the thin epoxy.

Mix the saw dust with some epoxy and use to fill cracks. Make some more sawdust from a piece of scrap teak if needed. Lightly sand until smooth.

Apply two more coats of epoxy to seal against moisture (no need to sand between coats).

Apply three or more coats of two part polyurethane varnish for the final finish and to provide UV protection. I've used System 3 varnish because I know it is compatible with their epoxy but it is important to use polyurethane varnish because the alkyds in some other varnishes react with epoxy and the varnish doesn't harden. If you aren't sure, test on a piece of scrap wood.

Of course, a nice new teak cap will look even better but it is surprising how good an old piece of wood can look and it's a lot less than $2k.

As always, this is my opinion/experience, it's worth what you paid for it.
 
#13 ·
Spot on Jim, thanks for making my post more complete.

Avery, you're going to have to do a little research on what is available in your comfort zone for a day trip.

I built an entire 40x14 foot back deck out of mahogany, simply went to 84 lumber and bought it in 20 foot planks (5.5 inches wide, 1.5 inches thick at 1.94 per foot). I left it unfinished but scrubbed it yearly, it was still nice and golden brown after 5 years when I sold the house.
I used the same stuff, milled it down and used it for handrails on my front stairs and porch, with 5 coats of varnish it looked beautiful.

All of it was less than 1800 bucks, so your 2k is a bit high.

Now, if you want to see some teak, here's the 'hip' on my boat:


You can find it out there.

For Ipe, use only carbide tipped tools

Joining planks for a toe rail should be done using a 8:1 scarf at the joint, and if you want to get decorative put a standard dutchman centered on the join line.
 
#14 · (Edited)
The Last 4 Posts are Spot On and the other ones as well (good info.) !

Yes, the $ 2K is on the high side, was for $$ finished Teak and the 1st prices I found. i have been looking else where and have the price down to $ 1.2 K and the correct size. I have found 3 other teak suppliers, expect quotes back from them on Monday. Also, (now) I have 2nd & 3rd choices and not as expensive.

I will check out a portion of the toe rail as Geoff54 suggested, your thread gave me great info. (choice's) and put me on the right track (thank you). I did not have enough background to properly evaluate the toe rail but getting closer now. A couple days ago, I lightly probed it with a screw driver. The teak felt soft and showed a seperated grain. I thought the mean old Sun (UV's) had done a job on the wood over it's 42 years of life. I thought that 42 years would be about the expected life cycle of this wood, looks over the hill to me.

I will take some close up picture's tomorrow. My camera can really show the grain structure in double micro. mode... so You All Will See what I see with an experienced eye (I don't have this eye). I will probe it a little deeper and see how decomposed it is below the surface.

Thanks (All) for Steering me in the Right Direction.

Avery
 
#15 · (Edited)
Re: Toe Rail ReChecked Today, Looks Better I Thought !

Geoff54 and Everyone,

I think the Toe Rail will get a Pass. I went out and scrapped it with a screw driver and came up with decent looking wood .. just under the surface. I pulled & pushed on it to see what the strength was like, it felt fairly stiff (not weak). So, going full circle, per suggestion, the toe rail gets refinished. I think that it was recommended that the Toe Rail (T. R.) be removed and be completely redone. When I 1st looked at the T. R. I assumed that it was over the hill and due replacement, being it was a 42 YO T. Rail.

Today, I noticed that 1/2 of (on both sides) the Toe Rail Top Plate S.S. Strip is Missing. I see the hole imprint marks on the top of the teak toe rail, so it was there at one time. I'm wondering how common the -- S. S. Top Rail Strip is to find & replace it.

I took some pictures of the cabin top area and will be sending pictures of the chalky & cracking paint. I will send the pictures in the next thread & ask for recommendations.

Avery
 

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#16 ·
I took some pictures of the Cabin Top, it's paint is cracked and chalky.

I read the article about Refinishing at SNet., and have a general undertanding of what to do. Now, what would you do with the paint from the pictures you see. pictures. I've never did a lot of painting, other than painting my house and painting flat bed trailers I've built & touch up on Hvy. Equip. .

I see the Non (light blue) Skid Areas, are these (non slid) fairly easy to apply. I'd like to hear what's the best course of action. I will not do a thing until the major items are completed -- Rudder, 4 X 4 Hole, 2 Areas that have rotted wood below deck, and other listed items.

Avery
 

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#17 ·
Avery,

Your enthusiasm is heartening -- really! It's great to see someone with the juice flowing, envisioning the day when everything is just right.

That said, slow down and take a breath or three.

Don't get me wrong -- most of us have been there. The voice of reason (and experience) tells me that the only way to eat the elephant is one bite at a time.

The best advice I can give you is to begin to prioritize your punch list, and then tackle all the top priority things first. After those are done then start moving down the list.

A1 priority would be those things that keep the boat afloat. (Fixing holes; inspect/service seacocks; inspect/repair/replace bilge pump(s); inspect/service shaft seal; etc)

A2 would be all other safety systems. (Inspect/install smoke and CO detectors; Inspect all boat wiring; test your VHF; etc.)

A3 would be propulsion (Inventory/inspect/repair all sails; inspect/repair/replace standing rigging; check out your aux as well -- unless you know for a fact the fluids were replaced recently and regularly, change your oil, coolant, and tranny fluid; etc.)

B priorities would be stuff like electronics.

C priorities would be the cosmetic stuff.

D priorities... Don't worry about them -- new A, B, and C priorities will always pop up to keep the D priorities from ever getting anywhere near the top of the list.

Hope you take this in the constructive manner it is intended.

Best,
PF
 
#18 · (Edited)
Profin,

I'm with you and have set my A, B, C, List and similar to your's with pricing (high/ low) spread sheet.

In my other posts, I have a order of merit:

A: Repair/ Replace Rudder; repair 4 X 4 in. hole in stern; repair (2) structure (rotted) areas; clean & inspect the entire boat (carefully).

Note: All the thru hull fiiting were just done 1 yr. ago, engine & drive overhaul & shaft packing completed a yr. ago. Engine & Trans. just had a complete service, dip stick has brand new oil showing on it.

B. Complete check out of all equipment: A/C, Cold Box, Bilge Pump, Bowers, Fuel & Water Tanks, All Elect., Complete Check Out. The DC Panel needs to go, most switches are soft and wiring ends. Need to check out the smoke alarms & fire bottles, to include auto bilge pump. Check all the gages & instruments, knot meter is broke, etc. . The steering cables are soft to the cabin wheel, need replaced or tighten (?) .

C. Sails & Rigging, I have one old back stay cable to change, has two big old insulator connections where a high freq. ant. was mounted on the mast.

D. I have 2 or 3 anchors to buy, they were taken by the former owner for his other boat. I have one stanchion that is bent and may need replaced (if not repairable). I will find some other things, but not (hopefully) major items and they will be added on to the list. Toe Rail needs redone, all the winches should be checked & serviced.

D.a. I will need to do the bottom about 2 weeks prior to putting it in the water. I've been asking questions about the top side, it has cracked & chalky paint. I'd like to have an idea about what I'd be getting into (time & $$), it's still on the D.a. list.

E. The cabin needs some cushions made up (missing) and a couple widows may / or could be replaced. I need to buy a base & hand held radio (VHF). I was advised to wait until about 2 months before I go out. The prices (used) go down every month on electronics, the newer stuff comes out & people up grading. This is the right idea, I will have the boat (nearly) done and know exactly what my budget is $$$ ? I need to find a dinghy (used) and mounting fixture or tow (?) rig. I'd like to add a drop-in swim ladder to give me access from the water level.

Closing.. I do need to a take a step back & take a take deep breath. However, I don't think I'm overwhelmed, this is not my 1st big project. It's my 1st sailboat repair & not in my usual comfort zone and learning one day at a time.

My list is not a 100% yet, but I'm working on it; I'm doing all the important items 1st.

Thanks for the Help,

Avery
 
#20 · (Edited)
Avery

We are pretty much in line with our projects. I initially wanted to replace the toerail and my deck was cracked. I attacked the deck first - spent the summer fixing it. Don't take it lightly - some of those cracks you'll have to open up into a V groove and fill it with epoxy fairing compound, others which are small crazings you just sand. Lots of work but the result is astonishing. I removed all the craks, faired, sanded, faired, sanded, then painted and Kiwi-Grip.
As for the toerails - there is a Brazilian wood called Cumaru which is readily available in the US (and here in Canada), it is better than Ipe for this purpose, and a lot cheaper than teak - its also known as Brazilian teak. It is used mostly for backyard decks and it is stable and weathers well. Great for toerail. I will eventually be replacing mine and have located a dealer that has 2X2 in 12 feet lengths.
Check out these sites below from Pearson 35 owners- it's a great site for getting to know projects for any boat. The second link is from the same site - a toerail done using Cumaru, but he did it with a ¾ by 2 inch stock size, even then it looks pretty nice IMO.

As it was said before have the project list by priorities, otherwise you'll burn out in no time.
Good luck.

Owners Projects

New Toe Rail
 
#25 ·
I wouldn't call them readily available. But they can be found. My new favourite is Garapa. As a deck builder, I've installed a about 10,000 feet of of Ipe Decking, and just started working with Garapa.
It's easier to work with, cheaper, and I find the grain to be more consistent. If I ever had to replace teak on a boat, I think it would be my first choice.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Highfly,
My teak toe rail is also in very poor shape (cracks, holes), I plan to fill and fair with epoxy and will use wood flour as an additive filler. Here is a source:

MAS Epoxies Wood Flour

It is amazing the repairs you can do with epoxy, and a good feeling when you bring back a piece of wood that most would think should be thrown out.

Regards
 
#23 ·
Teak is definitely the best choice. There are some other less expensive woods if you can find them. Canarywood is one. Locust is very rot resistant. I would not use oak or mahogany. They are both subject to rot rather quickly if not completely sealed all the time which, as we know, is really not feasible. The characteristics of hardness, workability, and rot-resistance are not present in many woods.
 
#24 ·
smurphny I'd have to disagree with you about mahogany being subject to rot. That's true of Philippine mahogany (luan) but not of South American mahogany. Unfortunately there are a number of woods being marketed as mahogany that include: Philippine mahogany, Indonesian mahogany, Santos mahogany and African mahogany. All have grains similar to the real thing and are fine for interior woodwork but some have drawbacks. African mahogany expands and contracts more, especially outdoors which can cause the finish to fail and luan is not as rot resistant. I haven't had the opportunity to work with Santos mahogany so I can't comment on it. That's why I specified South American mahogany in my original post.

I do agree with you that ANY wood used on a boat should be properly sealed before installation.

The real gem is Cuban mahogany, but that's a subject for another post.

BTW, I learned the hard way with African/Indonesian mahogany (khaya). I still have about a thousand board feet in my shop, but it will only be used for interior projects.
 
#26 ·
I think teak is most people's first choice because it has been used in the marine industry for so long, not because it is inherently "better" than other woods. In my experience, the best wood for the outside of boats is Arariba, but just try finding it at your lumberyard! :)
 
#27 ·
There certainly are alternate woods to use in place of teak. It seems to be a crap shoot as to whether it is available anywhere nearby. I would love to try some of the woods you guys have mentioned.

As far as the mahogany discussion goes, I guess I have just removed too much rotten mahogany over the years to ever choose it if something else is available. I've owned many wood boats and have dug out mahoganies of probably every species under the sun. On 20s-50s boats there was a lot of very high quality mahogany, beautiful tight grained stuff, but once it gets fresh-water wet in an end grain, it's just a matter of time until you can poke a knife through it with little effort. Just my opinion but given a choice as to a species for planking, topsides, decks, bulkheads, etc. mahogany would be pretty far down the list. It's best attribute is that it's beautiful when varnished and easy to work with.

In the construction industry mahogany is becoming more available for decking. Anyone using it is in for a sad surprise in not too many years. They may as well use white pine. Yellow pine is still a MUCH better wood for this and is also appropriate for boat structures. Long-leaf yellow pine, if you can find it, is almost as rot resistant as locust. It's ugly as the dickens but has good rot resistance. In the woods, locust can lay on the ground for many years without the slightest sign of rot. It's pretty amazing. Cedars are great but much too soft for most things. Firs/spruces all rot fairly quickly although some have excellent weight/strength ratios for spars and such.
 
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