Third Reef or Storm Sail? - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree8Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 12-26-2012
RichH's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,884
Thanks: 9
Thanked 78 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 15
RichH will become famous soon enough
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
...... when you could just reef the normal kit from the cockpit and go below and have a hot cuppa tea?

Mark
.... and whats the maximum wind load rating of your 'normal' sail cloth material?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 12-26-2012
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,728
Thanks: 0
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

I have not gone offshore. BUT, If I were to, i would have a deep 2nd or 3rd reef option, wish I had the 3rd reef option in puget sound at times, along with a trysail for off shore work.

This mind you comes from an article I saw in sailing world about 4-5 yrs ago, maybe 2 or 3 Volvo 70 world races too......In that article, it stated that these boats had 3 sail options for wind speeds in the 40-50 range. The range we normals would want to be down in SA. The options were based on wave height as much as anything. If the waves were deeper, IIRC that went with say 1000# of sail that was slightly taller on the mast, so when in the hole, they could still get wind. When waves were shorter, they went with a shorter sail setup. One might be a trysail 80% jib, the other a 3rd reef and 70% jib.

Granted the V70 crews have IIRC 25 sails on board, us mortals maybe 3-5......still worth thinking about this issue for best sailing, speed, lack of heeling etc when it comes to which sail option to have. Especially since in higher winds, the trysail will be heavier cloth, same with a storm jib of sorts, best not to toss or try to not do with these! Could save ones bacon!

marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 12-27-2012
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,371
Thanks: 28
Thanked 83 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkofSeaLife is on a distinguished road
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichH View Post
.... and whats the maximum wind load rating of your 'normal' sail cloth material?
I really dont know.

If the wind is abaft the beam I would be under bare poles.
Forward of the beam at 45 or 50 knots I would be hove to... I would probably drop the sails and be motoring at 30 degrees to 45 deg into the seas.

Certainly on my boat the engine is more than an "auxillary". Its a main system to be used judiciously. If sailing in the right season its pretty unlikely to hit bad weather for more than 24 hours, and I try to have a 24 hour reserve(2 gerry cans at 1,800 RPM).

Times have changed and theres better tactics than Allard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing. Most modern boats have a much bigger engine, for example a friend has a Corbin 39 which came with a 33 HP engine for a 10 ton, 23,000 pound boat, where mine is 7 ton and has a 56 HP engine. Obviously the storm tactics can be diffent.

Mark
__________________
Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 12-27-2012 at 08:12 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 12-27-2012
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,595
Thanks: 5
Thanked 96 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

To me the answer to this is another question; 'for how long?' If you are coastal cruising and taking short offshore hops, you may be able to get by with a third reef in your mainsail. If properly reinforced a third reef works okay for short periods of time.

But generally, the fabric and stitching in a mainsail is too light to stand up to the kinds of days of abuse that is implied in getting hammered by a big storm offshore. To explain, coastal cruiser mainsails are generally designed to sail well across a pretty wide range of winds. They are purposely a lighter weight fabric than a dedicated offshore, heavy air sail with the idea that they will hold their shape and perform in the more predominant light to moderate winds that coastal cruisers sail in.

Without taking much of a performance hit, you can have the head of the sail triple stitched and you can have the third reef reinforcing particularly heavily done, but over even a few days, given the weight of the fabric the amazingly violent abuse of heavy air sailing will take a permanent toll on the sail.

With that in mind, the right answer needs to come out of how you personally will use the boat. If you are a coastal cruiser who makes a couple day leap offshore once and while, where you can chose your weather window and only deal with a fast moving front passing through, then I would probably say, just add a third reef with a enlarged reinforcing patch and triple stitching at the head. If you are making longer passages, you will probably want the storm trisail on its own track. There is a very good reason these exist.

Jeff
outbound likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 12-27-2012
RichH's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,884
Thanks: 9
Thanked 78 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 15
RichH will become famous soon enough
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Times have changed and theres better tactics than Allard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing. Most modern boats have a much bigger engine, for example a friend has a Corbin 39 which came with a 33 HP engine for a 10 ton, 23,000 pound boat, where mine is 7 ton and has a 56 HP engine. Obviously the storm tactics can be diffent.

Mark
.... and at what angle of heel does your engine's oil sump stop delivering oil to its oil pump? ;-)
jrd22 and killarney_sailor like this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 12-29-2012
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,854
Thanks: 55
Thanked 64 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

I don't think this is an either/or question. You need both: the third reef or a deep second reef for times when the trysail is not needed for a predicted, long-term storm. You're not going to be hauling the try out and going through all that work for a quick front to pass or a squall but you do need the small sail area. You usually need to reef quickly in those situations but when the barometer starts falling at a fast clip and other indications and forecasts are that there will be a protracted storm, then the main comes down and try up. The try, being loose-footed is probably a lot more stable than a sail on the boom and gets the center of effort lower. The boom can then be lashed down out of the way. I have never had occasion to use my trysail but have had lots of opportunities to reef down to the second reef point which is quite small. I recently built a second heavy-duty cruising sail which has a VERY small third reef and all kinds of extra reinforcement so it will only be a predicted, long storm that will cause me to break out the trysail.
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 01-21-2013
GrahamO's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portsmouth NH
Posts: 180
Thanks: 5
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 3
GrahamO is on a distinguished road
Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I think you are correct so, first off, we are getting a third reef put in the main. It will not be rigged all the time but we will be able to have either #1 and #2 available or #2 and #3 depending on the season and the type of sailing we are doing. I suspect the latter will become the normal configuration because by the time you need the first reef the second works just fine....
We will also reluctantly order a storm sail as well. I slightly begrudge the money and the storage but better safe than sorry. Just another ' boat unit'......

Graham
jrd22 likes this.
__________________
Graham and Janaki
Bristol 38.8
Leela
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 01-21-2013
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,009
Thanks: 29
Thanked 55 Times in 51 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamO View Post
Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I think you are correct so, first off, we are getting a third reef put in the main. It will not be rigged all the time but we will be able to have either #1 and #2 available or #2 and #3 depending on the season and the type of sailing we are doing. I suspect the latter will become the normal configuration because by the time you need the first reef the second works just fine....
We will also reluctantly order a storm sail as well. I slightly begrudge the money and the storage but better safe than sorry. Just another ' boat unit'......

Graham
Whats the weight of you main?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 01-21-2013
MikeOReilly's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Posts: 1,133
Thanks: 104
Thanked 52 Times in 46 Posts
Rep Power: 5
MikeOReilly is on a distinguished road
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Seems to me having both is the right answer, but for those who have actually used the tri-sail, how did you manage the unsupported boom?

Our boom is very long and heavy. Lashing it down to the deck would be a real challenge. It would overlap the cockpit, and would certainly block one side of the deck. For this reason, I'm thinking a 3rd reef is a more functional arrangement.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 01-21-2013
jrd22's Avatar
Courtney the Dancer
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: San Juan Islands., WA, USA
Posts: 3,823
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 14
jrd22 will become famous soon enough
Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Our current boat came with a heavy offshore main with 3 reefs. I've never needed the 3rd here in PNW, but that's just because we've been lucky. The boat has done a lot of Pacific crossings and the PO never mentioned wishing they had a trysail instead of just the 3rd reef and I know on one 5800nm crossing they encountered three major storms that broke a lot of stuff on the boat. If the main is built strong enough and the 3rd reef is deep enough to work well with a storm staysail maybe that is OK. Better to have it though than to wish you had it I guess.
__________________
John
SV Laurie Anne

1988 Brewer 40 Pilothouse

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gale Sail or just reef the jib in strong winds? (SF Bay) MarkSF Gear & Maintenance 48 06-08-2012 02:25 PM
Storm Sail with roller furling? sebez General Discussion (sailing related) 4 06-03-2012 09:31 AM
FWIW Recycled Storm Sail Squidd Gear & Maintenance 10 03-06-2012 03:58 PM
Main Sail question, No reef points? DulceSuerna General Discussion (sailing related) 8 11-30-2010 01:20 PM
To reef or not to reef, that is the question blackpearlsailing General Discussion (sailing related) 12 05-28-2008 07:46 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:32 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.