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  #21  
Old 01-22-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Whats the weight of you main?
Chef,
It is a standard 2012 Doyle cruising main, Dacron and fully battened.

It is well made but probably not robust enough to eliminate the need for a storm sail.

I'm delivering it to them this week for the mods so I will discuss any needed reinforcement. They have been very helpful to date.

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  #22  
Old 01-23-2013
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Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

We have a trysail that we have never used although on a few occasions (the last being Mauritius to South Africa we did have it on deck with slides in the track ready to hoist after attaching the clew. With a rigid vang, we cannot drop the boom to deck but don't think we will have a problem with securing the boom with vang, sheet and preventer. Our boom looks to be setup for trysail to attach there but the load does not look right to me so we would attach to stern corner and run permanent outhaul to large cockpit winch.

We have a Hood furling main and at times have had it hugely reefed (think eighth reef). Without this capability I imagine we would have used the trysail. This is particularly valuable with the Monitor vane which does not like much sail area aft of the mast when it is honking. Morley has steered quite successfully in more than 40 knots with a relatively large jib and tiny or even no main. It is all quite complicated because it is not just the sail configuration that needs to be considered, but also the boat and other equipment like self-steering.
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  #23  
Old 01-23-2013
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Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOReilly View Post
Seems to me having both is the right answer, but for those who have actually used the tri-sail, how did you manage the unsupported boom?

Our boom is very long and heavy. Lashing it down to the deck would be a real challenge. It would overlap the cockpit, and would certainly block one side of the deck. For this reason, I'm thinking a 3rd reef is a more functional arrangement.
I know what you mean. My boom is long as well, extending to the back of the cockpit. I have never had to use the try but the boom would definitely need to be lowered and lashed down as far stb. or port as possible, outside the sheet blocks, preferably on the windward side if heaving-to. The clew of the try is quite low. I have a folding boom arch for use if motoring which keeps the boom secured but it holds the boom too high. The boom would certainly be a hindrance to moving around once lashed across the cockpit.
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

I have two single point jiffy reefs to the cockpits and a 3rd manual reef up high. The sail is robust. I also carry a 75% storm jib but it requires taking down the 120 genoa on the furler. The genoa can be furled to about 90%. We have used the two reefs long ago but not the 3rd reef. Depending on configuration you may need running backstays or set back intermediate pyramidals for heavy wx sailing.

Problem is that setting heavy wx sails usually is too late and can be very dangerous. In that case best to drop it all and deploy drouges or a sea anchor.
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

I guess we are lucky that we have a pretty handy setup. We have a releasable inner stay that we can hank a storm staysail onto before we depart then move it out the way - it is then very easy to hook up and hoist. When it starts to blow we tend to set up the staysail inside the genoa and sail cutter style as we progressively furl in the genoa to trim the boat. We have running back stays but the mast is so over-engineered and the angle of incidence of the inner stay is so fine that it would need to be really hammering to need them. The Neil Pryde genoa has foam strips sown into the luff and behaves remarkably well when heavily reefed.

We have a separate storm track on the mast that we can again hank a storm trysail onto before heading out and leave it bundled on deck ready to hoist. I doubt that we will do it often with the third reef available.

This lot is no credit to us. The original owner just did a good job of setting it all up. We just need to buy that storm trysail now.

Then we need to practice heaving to with all of the different configurations.....

Graham

Quote:
Originally Posted by mother goose View Post
I have two single point jiffy reefs to the cockpits and a 3rd manual reef up high. The sail is robust. I also carry a 75% storm jib but it requires taking down the 120 genoa on the furler. The genoa can be furled to about 90%. We have used the two reefs long ago but not the 3rd reef. Depending on configuration you may need running backstays or set back intermediate pyramidals for heavy wx sailing.

Problem is that setting heavy wx sails usually is too late and can be very dangerous. In that case best to drop it all and deploy drouges or a sea anchor.
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  #26  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Its been a long time since I have sailed in truly heavy weather. Yet having done so I always feel a certain uncomfortable doubt about boats I have sailed in recent years. I usually sail coastal sheltered waters now. All the boats I have chartered have just a furling headsail and a 2 reef main. This setup just does not cope with strong winds and most folks get worked up about 25Kn wind.
My own boat was a C&C 24 this and a spinnaker was all she had. I sailed her in over 30kn winds a few times double reefed and furled up. I would not have been happy in much more.
I have tried the just main or jib but boat doesnít balance drags to high and you just go sideways.

Back in the day. I really liked a triple reefed main. And our No 3 jib. It worked as well as if not better than a trysail was much easier to put in. We did blow a seam in the main once. It was a bugger to stitch up. Two man job. The storm sail was heavier and slightly smaller than the no 3 jib the try sail about the same size as the 3rd reef. But heavier. We used a separate track for the try sail but tied the tack and clew down on the main boom. The biggest problem was it was much more difficult to set than put the 3rd reef in.
The boat was a 72ft ketch with a stay sail so lots of options including drop the main and just a reefed mizzen and stay sail or No 3.
I canít remember sail areas or percentages. Our main was pretty heavy and the 3rd reef and above had 3 rows of stitching and lots of reinforcing at the cringles.

I would be interested in knowing what the chef uses on his boat. My ďnewĒ boat is a sister.
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  #27  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

This is a good discussion that covers many of the main points of this topic. One thing not mentioned, perhaps, is the performance of the boat itself.

A lightweight flat bottomed fin keeled Hunter is a dramatically different beast than an Alberg 37 or Westsail. They have wildly different sail areas and capsize ratios and righting moments.

Seems true that a modern fin keeled fast boat is going to need smaller sails in storm conditions to avoid going too fast or being blown over. Whereas a deep keel heavy cruiser is able to carry a bit more sail due to her design.

Having sailed all of the above, it is amazing to me the difference between how our full keel Gulf 32 handles ugly conditions compared to the Beneteau's or Hunter's we've sailed. A good second reef on a full keel boat still has less sail area up in relation to the design of the boat than a third reef may have on a modern boat.

Just another thing to consider.
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  #28  
Old 02-07-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwindrope View Post
This is a good discussion that covers many of the main points of this topic. One thing not mentioned, perhaps, is the performance of the boat itself.

A lightweight flat bottomed fin keeled Hunter is a dramatically different beast than an Alberg 37 or Westsail. They have wildly different sail areas and capsize ratios and righting moments.

Seems true that a modern fin keeled fast boat is going to need smaller sails in storm conditions to avoid going too fast or being blown over. Whereas a deep keel heavy cruiser is able to carry a bit more sail due to her design.

Having sailed all of the above, it is amazing to me the difference between how our full keel Gulf 32 handles ugly conditions compared to the Beneteau's or Hunter's we've sailed. A good second reef on a full keel boat still has less sail area up in relation to the design of the boat than a third reef may have on a modern boat.

Just another thing to consider.
I don't disagree, but something else to consider is what sort of conditions we are talking about. When I had smaller, lighter boats and was sailing on the Great Lakes 25 to 30 knots was about all I wanted. After doing a lot of bluewater miles in recent years we have gotten used to sailing, often for days, in winds greater than 30 knots and seen these winds as an opportunity to make good progress. But this is in a big (40,000 lb) boat with a powerful rig. Not sure what we would have done in a smaller boat since such winds would not be seen as an opportunity. A Swedish couple with a Vega were rafted to us in Mossel Bay in South Africa. They waited for three weeks for a window to go 230 miles around Cape Agulhas because they needed three clear days. For us, two days would be more than enough. I guess what I am saying is that definitions of heavy weather vary enormously as do the kinds of sailing that people want to do. Hence the answer as to the approach to be used has to be unique to the boat, the crew, and the conditions to be faced.
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  #29  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

Good point Killarney, I don't disagree either. Our posts are filling out colors of the spectrum here, and making complimentary points. Really, it gets at the heart of why so many of us love sailing to begin with: it is complex, multi-factorial and requires critical judgment.

Perhaps this is why I've never met an unintelligent cruising sailor!
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  #30  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Third Reef or Storm Sail?

My vote is for both.
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