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  #101  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I'd start using that dead blow hammer and twisting the rudder back & forth like you described earlier.

Nothing too extreme - just firmly & steadily, alternating from one to the other.

If you can't get anywhere with that and the penetrant, a more serious attack would be to slit the rudder tube lengthwise and wedge it open. Then the rudder would HAVE to drop out (I think ). You could repair the tube simply by wrapping it with some layers of epoxy & glass fabric.
Can you elaborate on wrapping the split tube? I would be concerned about getting the tube back to orig strength. In the event splitting the tube becomes my only option I would like to know more.
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  #102  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

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Originally Posted by rbyham View Post
A quick progress report. No video but here is apicture of current status. As you can see one side of the shaft is now exposed down to top of rudder tube. I am tryign to preserve shaft (obviously) and tube. My hope is to see the stuffing box loosen as I dround it in Kroils. Will try heat tomorrow as well. So far no movement. Have used large pipe wrench on it but will not budge. The rudder is lashed form below in case it suddenly frees up. Any other ideas??? Thanks.
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  #103  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

I think if you had been paying a yard to do this work by now you would be rapidly approaching the boat value tiping point. A good shop would focus on keeping it simple and keeping the cost to a minimum. They would recommend cutting the tube out of the boat, remove tube/rudder to workshop environment to salvage the rudder and installing a new fiberglass tube. Filament wound tubing is available off the shelf.

Not to offend, but you are tackling a problem that has been festering for over 40 years, and in the big picture this is a small repair, in a difficult location, by an owner with limited experience that must be thinking 'there has to be a better way'. You've given it a huge effort. Your love of sailing shouldn't be challenged by this project.
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  #104  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

From a lifetime around piping and pipe fitters I know this; It's almost always easier to split cast or malleable if a long slot is cut in the fitting.(omg, my dad used to split cast iron fittings with one shot from a sledge!) The hard part; is spreading that slot apart with a tool I've never seen. Sort of a reverse leverage bolt cutter with super strong blades, like we see on sheet metal vise grip pliers. Cast fittings split.. malleable... "tear" if the slot cut is deep enough. .. scoring the rudder post is not the worse thing you can do. I'm sure a talented welder could fix that.

Changing to a FG tube seems inevitable too.. Maybe it is time to cut the metal one out! Wonders can be worked with FG and epoxy that Joe average could never attempt without them.

On my boat the tube is pretty high and the quadrant hub is right on the top of the FG tube. (should have a thrust bearing but it's easy to turn without one) The water line is well below the top of the tube also. There are glassed in plywood gussets holding the tube, but I don't think lateral movement is a big problem since the tube continues up to the transom deck.

Cutting/drilling holes in our boats is a terrifying thing... in reality it's not all that terrible. Again, with epoxy and glass.. not much can't be fixed. The only real negative with epoxy, is sunlight damage.....

jus sayin.....
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Last edited by deniseO30; 02-02-2013 at 12:19 PM.
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  #105  
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

As I let Dr. Kroil do his thing I am cleaning up fuel line replacement and electrical connection projects. Both are done so I am encouraged today. Currently replacing coolant hose that dumps into exhaust system just aft of the A4. Learning much about the boat and confident a way will be found with the rudder. As they say, the hardest part of any job is figuring out the easiest way. I am committed to not permanently disabling a vessel that daily I grow more appreciative of.
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  #106  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

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Originally Posted by rbyham View Post
As I let Dr. Kroil do his thing I am cleaning up fuel line replacement and electrical connection projects. Both are done so I am encouraged today. Currently replacing coolant hose that dumps into exhaust system just aft of the A4. Learning much about the boat and confident a way will be found with the rudder. As they say, the hardest part of any job is figuring out the easiest way. I am committed to not permanently disabling a vessel that daily I grow more appreciative of.
That's the spirit... don't give up... those that do have vessels rotting away on the hard or derelict in the slips... seen too many!

Galling is when metal contacts metal and starts to scour/shred with no lubricity between them... if left long and continues to gall they almost will bond together from friction and no amount of force other than tearing these parts apart... let's hope that is not the case with the rudder/tube assembly... it would take a lot of heat to get the different metals to expand enough to let them slip and move...

Good luck and hope you find a method to solve your situation.

Nick
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  #107  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

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Originally Posted by rbyham View Post
Can you elaborate on wrapping the split tube? I would be concerned about getting the tube back to orig strength. In the event splitting the tube becomes my only option I would like to know more.
Simply cutting pieces of glass fabric long enough to wrap around the tube, wetting them with epoxy and then wrapping the tube with it, piece by piece with the seams staggered.

Since your tube is metal and after reading Denise's post, I'm beginning to think cutting the whole mess out and replacing with a pre-made fiberglass tube might be the easiest way to go. That's if you simply cannot get it out without cutting something seriously.

I once made a stern tube by very thoroughly waxing the shaft and then wrapping pre-wetted glass cloth round & round until I got the thickness I wanted. Sliding it off the shaft took a bit of effort but it came off. I then put some valve lapping compound in it, slid it back on and rotated it until I had a very nice precise fit - just enough to prevent "hydro lock" or whatever the proper term is for the lockup you can get when water enters a too perfectly tight mating surface.

If you cut out your entire rudder setup and cut it apart on a bench, as suggested earlier, you could create your own, perfectly mated rudder tube the same way and then simply glass/epoxy it in place with some added gussets for strength.

That would be a fairly big job, and certainly nasty in such a confined space though, so I'd continue as is for now.
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  #108  
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Simply cutting pieces of glass fabric long enough to wrap around the tube, wetting them with epoxy and then wrapping the tube with it, piece by piece with the seams staggered.

Since your tube is metal and after reading Denise's post, I'm beginning to think cutting the whole mess out and replacing with a pre-made fiberglass tube might be the easiest way to go. That's if you simply cannot get it out without cutting something seriously.

I once made a stern tube by very thoroughly waxing the shaft and then wrapping pre-wetted glass cloth round & round until I got the thickness I wanted. Sliding it off the shaft took a bit of effort but it came off. I then put some valve lapping compound in it, slid it back on and rotated it until I had a very nice precise fit - just enough to prevent "hydro lock" or whatever the proper term is for the lockup you can get when water enters a too perfectly tight mating surface.

If you cut out your entire rudder setup and cut it apart on a bench, as suggested earlier, you could create your own, perfectly mated rudder tube the same way and then simply glass/epoxy it in place with some added gussets for strength.

That would be a fairly big job, and certainly nasty in such a confined space though, so I'd continue as is for now.
Or use an over-sized ready made fiberglass tube and insert a plain bearing at the bottom end.

You could even mold a bearing in place epoxy mixed with grapithe powder and colloidal silica.
Look at page 61-62 in this pdf http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...aintenance.pdf
Would give a better bearing surface.

If the rudder stock has a bearing at the top end the only reason to have a long tube is to keep the water out.

Depending on the height above water line, You can probably replace the packing box with a gaiter.
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  #109  
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
. . . If you cut out your entire rudder setup and cut it apart on a bench, as suggested earlier, you could create your own, perfectly mated rudder tube the same way and then simply glass/epoxy it in place with some added gussets for strength.
As much as the tube needs to be mated, it MUST have clearance, just as the drive shaft tube has clearance, it should not be glove tight, otherwise you will develop similar problems in the future.

A sawzall will make quick work of cutting out existing tube. It is simple surgery, and attaching the new tube, although in tight quarters, should be simple.
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Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

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Originally Posted by rugosa View Post
As much as the tube needs to be mated, it MUST have clearance, just as the drive shaft tube has clearance, it should not be glove tight, otherwise you will develop similar problems in the future.
Rugs - that was why I included the comment about lapping. They are glove tight after laminating the waxed tube - too tight to put in the water or it would seize from the surface tension or whatever the physics are of that situation. If you lap them a bit it loosens up enough to prevent that but you get a full length bearing surface.
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