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post #41 of 196 Old 01-20-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

Silly question.. the boat is out of the water? guess the lower tube is imbedded just like cutless struts are on many boats. suggestion; save the rudder and shaft, the rest can be made re-made better.

Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club.
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post #42 of 196 Old 01-20-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

After reading all the suggestions... why not use two people to get it loose?... One can be turning the pulley inside the boat while the other person turns the rudder in the same direction applying the same loads and in the process loosen the stuck rudder... what you don't want to do is apply loads in area of a joint/bearing... the use of the lubricant will help some but I think either way you'll be applying some loads to loosen it at some point... worth a try... do it in both directions back and forth but in concert with both applying the same loads and direction....
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post #43 of 196 Old 01-20-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

Well I did not have a lot of timeo n the project today but there is a new and I think very significant development. I purchased 2 2x4s at Home Depot along with two threaded bolts. Drilling the 2x4s and bolting them in sandwich form around the rudder, I was able to take advantage of the additional leverage to slowly try to turn the rudder back and forth. At first there was no movement. After about 10 tugs, We felt a pop and suddenly could move the rudder about 3 inches each side of center/straight. Unfortunately as we checked down inside to insure we were not doing damage, we learned that what was turning was not the shaft but rather the whole stuffing box/bearing unit was turning inside the tube. Though initially discouraged I came away thinking that at minimum, we now know what the problem is - the stuffing box/bearing is seized on the shaft.

But solutions that present sound complicated. In fact the only one that comes to my mind is to cut the bearing off the shaft with something like a dremel tool. That might let the rudder drop out enough to install a new stuffing/gear box and bolt things back up.
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post #44 of 196 Old 01-20-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

The packing removal tools described above are the right tools to get out the packing. You should use two hooks simultaneously -- on opposite sides of the shaft. Old packing can really be a bear to get out. If dry it's stiff; it wet it's swollen. In a pinch I've gotten out packing using drywall screws. Keep in mind that the packing was square when it was installed, that is, the depth of each ring = .5 x (ID of the tube - OD of the shaft). You want to remove one ring at a time.

Since there is a grease cup, there probably is a lantern ring where the the grease was fed into the stuffing box. Given the age of the boat the lantern ring, it is probably made of bronze. The surfaces of the lantern rings that abut the packing typically have holes in them. You need to hook in those holes to pull out the lantern ring as with the packing you should use two hooks simultaneously -- on opposite sides of the shaft. Otherwise the lantern ring will be cocked. After you get out the lantern ring there will probably be two or three more rings of packing to be removed.
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post #45 of 196 Old 01-20-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

get a right angle grinder with cut off wheel, they cut metal like cheese. Do make allot of sparks so you want NO gasoline about.

Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club.
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

Hudson I am not following you. Are you saying there is more packing in that stuffing box and it is under something called a lantern ring? Hmmm. I have no idea what the grease cup is either. Can you point out location of grease cup and lantern ring in the pics? I would be happy to go digging deeper into the stuffing box but the surface that shows in my photos was below some packing and is very hard. I assume it was the bottom of the box. If this is not so maybe there is still hope to unfreeze it. Let me know. Denise... I hear you on the grinder and if I go that route would be very careful. One of my big challenges is that we are in a rental here in Charleston and my tools are all deeply buried in storage awaiting purchase of a home. So the grinder, the dremel, and the sawzall cannot be located. That is another reason I am thinking to hire this done. I ave bought a few tools needed along the way but dont want to keep doing that and ending up with duplicates. Thanks folks.
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

Someone sent me this link: Upgrading the autopilot with a new linear drive A similar situation with what appears to me to be a unique solution. I have never heard of a "gaiter". Any thoughts? It would seem to me that if I go to all the trouble of cutting off the old stuffing box the rudder would drop easily making it quite simple to get and install a new Edson stuffing box.
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

I don't know that it's good on wheel steering boats.. the actuator would have to be rather beefy to move all the hardware. But I don't actually know. others here may.
I like wheel pilot. my boat has an old raymarine 3000. works well..

Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club.
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post #49 of 196 Old 01-21-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbyham View Post
Someone sent me this link: Upgrading the autopilot with a new linear drive A similar situation with what appears to me to be a unique solution.
That is my project
Here is another rudder related project Dropped the rudder for inspection

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Originally Posted by rbyham View Post
I have never heard of a "gaiter". Any thoughts? It would seem to me that if I go to all the trouble of cutting off the old stuffing box the rudder would drop easily making it quite simple to get and install a new Edson stuffing box.
You really don't know until the old stuffing box is off, if the rudder shaft is damaged on the bearing surface, a new stuffing box bearing will be damaged.

The recommendation from Jefa is that you can use the gaitor if the rudder tube goes at least 100 mm above waterline.

You can read more about it here Sealing systems
The whole point of this design is that you need a top and a bottom bearing The gaitor is there only to keep water out
On my boat they look like this:

Top bearing assembly


The top bearing


Locking ring


The bottom bearing
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/o...er_bearing.jpg

Last edited by knuterikt; 01-21-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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post #50 of 196 Old 01-21-2013
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Re: Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
I don't know that it's good on wheel steering boats.. the actuator would have to be rather beefy to move all the hardware.
There is not much friction in the steering system, I can grab hold of the rudder an turn it from full starboard to full port with my hands.

The drive unit (actuator) has an electrically operated clutch that is operated by the course computer, as soon as as the AP go into standby or is turned of the clutch disengages. The clutch engages when the AP is in pilot mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
But I don't actually know. others here may.
I like wheel pilot. my boat has an old raymarine 3000. works well..
It's what is used on most larger sailboats today, the actuator is rather beefy

The linear drive that I'm installing is sized for boats 20' to 45'.
The output force is 400 kg (881 lb) giving me a rudder torque of 100 KgM with a 25cm tiller arm.

I guess your old raymarine is something similar to the SPX-5

Raymarine give these figures
SPX-5 wheel pilot 7,500kg (16,500 lbs) Maximum boat displacement
Type 1 linear drive 11,000 kg (24,000 lb)Maximum boat displacement, Peak thrust 295 kg (650 lb)
Type 2 Short linear drive 15,000 kg (33,000 lb) Maximum boat displacement, Peak thrust 480 kg (1,050 lb)
Type 2 Long linear drive 20,000 kg (44,000 lb) Maximum boat displacement, Peak thrust 480 kg (1,050 lb)
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